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2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby swtt » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:00 pm

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/old-becomes-n ... wpxt6.html

Summary:
  • More DDs.
  • Interesting new route extensions and frequency boosts
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Stu » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:14 pm

Metrobus double deckers... now that would be a sight.

I guess Constance has no issue in scrapping a large volume of buses (artics) that still have plenty of operating life remaining because it is only tax payers money that is being used, not his money nor the operators money.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby kypros1992 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:15 pm

Further information on the DD expansion. Borismasters anyone?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/old-becomes-n ... wpxt6.html

Sydney's bendy buses will eventually become a thing of the past, the NSW government said on Tuesday, signalling its determination to go high and not long.

"We are replacing those bendy buses with the double-deckers," said Transport Minister Andrew Constance.
"This is the way to go, we will just continue to phase them out over them," he said.

The management of Sydney's bus network has begun to stoke fierce passions under Mr Constance. This latest announcement, following the recent move to "franchise" the operation of buses in Sydney's inner west, may prove no exception.
"I think it's ridiculous," said Chris Preston, secretary of the Rail, Tram & Bus Union's bus division.

"The three-door bendies are faster to load and unload," said Mr Preston. "And I can't see double-deckers going around back streets where trees overhang."

To be sure, Mr Constance will not be removing all of Sydney's bendy buses any time soon. On Tuesday he was joined by Premier Gladys Berejiklian to announce the government would buy more than 170 new buses in next week's budget. Of these, 134 will replace ageing buses, but will add 42 to the fleet.

The new buses, as well as more intensive use of existing buses, will help add more than 3300 more weekly services across Sydney, the Illawarra, the Central Coast and Hunter.

"There's no doubt some communities are reliant on extra bus services," Ms Berejiklian said.

"We are also finding people aren't just using public transport for work, which is great," she said.

"People are also using public transport to move around, for entertainment, for social reasons, and that's why it's really important for us to provide as much frequency, flexibility and longer hours in the timetable when we can, to accommodate those wishes."

Six of the new buses will be double-decker buses. Over time these double-deckers will replace the bendy or "articulated" buses that currently run across the city.

"It's a far better way in terms of road space to better utilise the roads for bus commuting," Mr Constance said, though he would not give a date for when all bendy buses would be replaced.

A director of the Sydney Bus Museum, David Bennett, said bendy buses were introduced to replace double-deckers in Sydney in the 1980s.

"The whole reason they phased out the 'deckers was because the union argued they couldn't have one-man operation with two decks," Mr Bennett said.

It was not until the 2000s that bendy buses spread across the city, after first being limited to the northern beaches.

"They've definitely got more than they ever had now," Mr Bennett said. "So to start regressing on them is an interesting move."

Nevertheless Mr Bennett said it was a good idea to replace the bendy buses.

"We long thought it was a bit bizarre they never adopted the 'deckers over the bendies because they take up less road space."

When transport minister, Ms Berejiklian first started to reintroduce the double-deckers in 2012.

The RTBU's Mr Preston, however, made multiple arguments against the double-deckers. "The bendies go anywhere where a normal rigid bus goes, where a double-decker won't."

And double-deckers take longer to load, he said. "People have to be seated up the top before the bus can move."

The switch from bendy buses to double-decker buses comes as the government proposes to do the opposite on parts of the train system – removing double-decker trains from the Epping to Chatswood line and on the Bankstown line.

Ms Berejiklian said single-decked services were good for high-frequency routes where people were often getting off and on.

"Double-decker services are great when people aren't getting off and on all the time, so for people who might get on in the north west and go all the way to the city, that's obviously a good reason to have a double-deck service," she said. This describes, however, the area in which the government is introducing single-deck trains.
The services set to change across Sydney:
Sydney Metropolitan

More than 1,600 additional services on the following routes: Routes 195, 196, 197 Mona Vale to Gordon and Macquarie Park via St Ives; Route 251 Lane Cove West to City via Lane Cove; Route 270 Frenchs Forest District to City; Route 280 Chatswood to Warringah Mall via Frenchs Forest; Route 292 Marsfield and Macquarie Park to City via Lane Cove; Routes 324, 325 Watsons Bay to Edgecliff via Rose Bay; Route 352 Marrickville Metro to Bondi Junction via Newtown and Surry Hills; Route 353 Eastgardens to Bondi Junction via Coogee; Route 370 Leichhardt to Coogee via Newtown and Green Square; Routes 374, X74 Coogee to City; Routes 392, X92 Little Bay to City via Eastgardens and Kingsford; Route 418 Burwood to Bondi Junction via Sydenham and Mascot; Route 461 Burwood to City via Parramatta Road; Route 504 Chiswick to City via Drummoyne; Route 506 Macquarie Park and East Ryde to City via Drummoyne; Routes 533, 534 Sydney Olympic Park and Ryde to Chatswood via; Wentworth Point and Mowbray Road; Route 914 Greenacre to Strathfield; Route M20 Zetland to Wynyard via Central Station; Route M52 Parramatta to City via Victoria Road New, extended or enhanced all-night services on the following routes: Route 400 Burwood to Bondi Junction via Sydney Airport; Route 423 Kingsgrove to City via Earlwood and Newtown; Route N20 Riverwood to City via Rockdale, Sydney Airport and Green Square; Route N81 Parramatta to City via Sydney Olympic Park and Wentworth Point (Thursday-Saturday only); Route N91 Bondi Junction to Macquarie Park via Kings Cross, City and Chatswood

Western Sydney (including Hills District and South West):

More than 1,500 additional services, including 11 new or extended routes: Route 632 Pennant Hills to Rouse Hill Town Centre via Castle Hill and Norwest; Route 746 Riverstone to Rouse Hill Town Centre via Box Hill; Route 747 Marsden Park to Rouse Hill Town Centre via Riverstone; Route 751 Blacktown to Rouse Hill Town Centre via Colebee and Marsden Park; Route 774 Mt Druitt to Penrith via St Marys and Caddens; Route 840 Campbelltown to Leppington via Gregory Hills and Oran Park; Route 853, 854 Liverpool to Edmondson Park via Carnes Hill; Route 859 Oran Park to Minto via Catherine Field; Route 868 Edmondson Park to Ingleburn via Ingleburn Industrial Area; Route 896 Oran Park to Campbelltown via Harrington Park and Narellan Enhanced services on the following routes: Route 614X Crestwood to City via M2; Route 711 Parramatta to Children's Hospital at Westmead; Route 817 Cabramatta to Fairfield via Bonnyrigg and Prairiewood; Route 887 Campbelltown to Wollongong via Appin; Route M60 Hornsby to Parramatta via Castle Hill; Route M61 Castle Hill to City via M2; Route T80 Liverpool to Parramatta via Bonnyrigg and Prairiewood New all-night services on the following route: Route M54 Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Carlingford
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:18 pm

It looks as though the double deckers which Transdev is acquiring for Metrobus routes will not be in Metrobus livery. So we may never see any in the red livery.

And I think the scrapping of the bendy's is a long way off yet.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby mandonov » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Yeah the announcement only says 6 new deckers will be purchased, so hardly a wholesale "replacement".

The article was somewhat worrying until Gladys clarified that long distance commuter routes are what the deckers are suited to. Judging from that I think we can expect bendy's to remain for inner-city, high turnover use (what they're best at) with deckers taking up the role of long distance express buses ( what they are best at).

You could argue that the B-Line was the beginning of this process of deckers replacing bendys in certain situations.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby VivalaBuses » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:45 pm

Some route announcements which stood out to me were N81, N91 (essentially an extended 200?) and 632 (bye bye Castlewood terminus?). The all night 400 will be good for those airport workers.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Glen » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:48 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:It looks as though the double deckers which Transdev is acquiring for Metrobus routes will not be in Metrobus livery. So we may never see any in the red livery.

I expect the red livery will just fade away, as it is already doing.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby mandonov » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:56 pm

Additional 324 and 325 services from Watsons Bay to Edgecliff is a good sign that the interchange is being used more.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby J_Busworth » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:09 pm

Any idea when the new services are being introduced? I presume we will see a release on Transport NSW soon hopefully with more information.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:20 pm

The new 896 sounds like the current 890 with a extension to Oran Park the 840 might use the proposed Badgally road extension between Campbelltown and Gregory's Hills when it opens meaning that the 840 might bypass Narellan road and the extra 887s will be good if they don't get as packed as the 887s that are currently timetabled
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Richard290 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:23 pm

VivalaBuses wrote:Some route announcements which stood out to me were N81, N91 (essentially an extended 200?) and 632 (bye bye Castlewood terminus?). The all night 400 will be good for those airport workers.

Looks like the N20 which currently runs between Rockdale and Riverwood will now be extended to serve the Airport during the night.
I wonder where all the demand for the all-night M54 services are coming from - currently since 5 June 2016 the M54 service extends to midnight seven nights a week (in conjunction with the introduction of the all-night 520 along Victoria Road).
I'm curious as to what route will replace the Castlewood Loop of route 632, possibly a separate route or an extension of route entering Castle Hill Town Centre from the west or north.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby swtt » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:56 pm

I have a quick suspicion that the m54 all night service will come from Epping Road itself between Carlingford Court and Macquarie Centre.

At the moment roughly half of Epping Town Centre has been demolished to make way for brand new apartments. This is the same along Carlingford Road.

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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby 1whoknows » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:19 pm

If they do get numbers of new deckers over the next few years, I would expect that the displaced artics would not be scrapped or sold but rather used to replace, where physically possible, the 14.5s which are now getting towards the bottom of the fleet and are not DDA compliant. After all we are continually told that an artic will go anywhere a rigid will.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby mandonov » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:31 pm

swtt wrote:I have a quick suspicion that the m54 all night service will come from Epping Road itself between Carlingford Court and Macquarie Centre.

At the moment roughly half of Epping Town Centre has been demolished to make way for brand new apartments. This is the same along Carlingford Road.

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Also keep in mind that the ECRL doesn't have a Nightride, which sucks if you're visiting someone in the area and need to leave late/early.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby swtt » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:40 pm

Wow - N91 Bondi Jn to Macquarie Park!

Didn't even catch that in the midst of the slab of text!!!!
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby mandonov » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Well I guess I stand corrected now!

Would that render the N100 obsolete, or would there still be a need for a service to Railway Sq specifically?
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby tonyp » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:28 pm

It looks like Ms Berejiklian and Mr Preston understand far more about the different functions of various types of buses than Mr Constance or Mr Bennett. I sincerely hope that line about double deckers "replacing" artics is misreporting but, depressingly, it sounds like it's not. More deckers for the role they're suited to is fine. Reducing the numbers of artics (let alone substituting decker services for artic services) is most definitely not. They need lots and lots more artics to help make up for some of the huge amount of capacity and the level of performance and efficiency lost when they got rid of the trams. There is no way in the world double deckers can achieve this. They failed to do so in 1961 and they'll fail to do so again.

As for that "road space" argument, yes by all means make as much room for cars as possible, that'll work really well.

Why is it that just about every other capital city bus system in Australia is, even if slowly, taking positive steps forward, but in NSW it just keeps f..cking itself over?
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:10 pm

J_Busworth wrote:Any idea when the new services are being introduced? I presume we will see a release on Transport NSW soon hopefully with more information.

After such announcements even by TfNSW, an implementation plan will be drawn up - we never saw last year's implementation plan so we just had to wait until the introduction of each change was announced. And I suspect that are a few which have still not seen the light of day. So we will again have to wait and see as to when they will all happen.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby boronia » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:17 pm

mandonov wrote:Yeah the announcement only says 6 new deckers will be purchased, so hardly a wholesale "replacement".

The article was somewhat worrying until Gladys clarified that long distance commuter routes are what the deckers are suited to. Judging from that I think we can expect bendy's to remain for inner-city, high turnover use (what they're best at) with deckers taking up the role of long distance express buses ( what they are best at).

You could argue that the B-Line was the beginning of this process of deckers replacing bendys in certain situations.

These six double deckers could well be part of the B-line order. Governments are good at recycling long term projects through several budgets, and re-announcing them each year.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Frosty » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:18 pm

I can think of so many routes where a artic won't go easily where a 12.5m bus can 343, 370, 400/410, 413 and any bus that runs through the Eastgardens lower level. Hillsbus's 14.5m buses are still pretty new and are DDA compliant it's just the 47 STA buses that are near retirement. What probably also makes even more complicated is the Region 6 tender and the 10 of 14.5m buses due for replacement in 2018 would there be enough time for a new operator to order and replace those 10 buses. Though bendies are used on nearly every Northern Beaches route.

I can see the N20 after Rockdale using the same 400 route alignment until Mascot Station then run via Botany Rd to Green Square then towards the City via Redfern (Regent St) or Central via Elizabeth St. For a second I thought they were extending the 400 24 hours from BJ to Easties

I would guess the m20 would get a few more short workings peak hour, late night & early morning services. Same could be said for the 370 a few extra off-peak workings though that routes problem is the timetable at least another 10-20 mins needs to be added end to end.

Those 6 double deckers could be an extra 6 for B-Line due to the extension to Newport.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Any replacements for region 6 buses would also come out of this budget as it also covers buses for private operators - not just the STA
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby boronia » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:18 pm

I wonder if not having an RTBU vs STA stoush in Region 6 would see d/ds there?
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby rogf24 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Interesting expansion of the Nightride services. But disappointing they did not take to opportunity to align route numbers with the new train line numbers at least to an extent. (So T1 Nightrides will have N1x, T4 Nightrides will have N4x). I would also renumber all 24 hour-7 days a week bus routes to an N-route so the overnight service is more easily identifiable and have a separate daytime route, a bit like Toronto.

For the N81 service, I would place a bet that it will use the new Bennelong Bridge and parallel the Nothern Line up to Rhodes. Using the Northern Line's N8x kind of hints at this rather than the Western Line's N7x. If the N81 is indeed running via Rhodes, I would also take the opportunity to run the existing N80 express via Victoria Road to Meadowbank. This will kind of cut off people needing to cross Rhodes and Meadowbank but Nightride is largely aimed at travel to and from the city anyway and the non-city areas along the route are quite sleepy at night without much going on so the impact will be minimal. In the longer term, I would hope to see Nightride buses use WestConnex for as many routes as possible.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby Route548 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:12 pm

Kinda surprised they're 'enhancing' the m52 since its patronage in shoulder periods and weekends isnt too bad (its not like buses are departing the city or Parra bursting at the seams at midday on a Wednesday or Saturday for example).

My suspicion is that they're probably going to put it on a timetable similar to the 380/333 wherein a bus every 3-5minutes from Ryde Shops and 7-10mins from Parramatta on the AM peak (and the reverse on PM peak) and a frequency of roughly every 10-15mins on weekends and night time.

The 292 i think is way overdue for a frequency increase as it only runs hourly on Sundays/holidays save for specific periods in the early AM and late afternoon and it also takes pressure off the 288 on the weekend when it is the only Epping Rd/Freeway service that is 'relatively' frequent seeing that it only runs every 30 mins anyway.
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Re: 2017-8 NSW State Budget - Buses

Postby swtt » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:53 pm

M52 is a designated Rapid route.

At the same time I think its weekend frequency (like many Metrobus routes) is being hampered by traffic congestion and a generally poor frequency. Even a gunzel like myself (and perhaps many on this board) would hesitate to try to catch a 20 min frequency service on a weekend -- despite 'real time' apps being available as it only managed to tell you how late it is.

Boosting the frequency might help. Not boosting it will definitely not help.
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