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STA Privatisation / Franchising

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:42 pm

The 300/350 had quite good loadings in the early days of the service. But by the mid 1990s, patronage was being eroded by the private shuttle buses which had unfettered access to the the terminals to hustle for customers virtually as soon as they came out of Customs/baggage collection. At one stage I recorded over 50 such operators. With similar, or cheaper, fares they provided a much more personalised door-to-door service than the AE could provide. AE had a nice office at T1 and a queue conductor at T3, but both were outside, out of the way for casual customers.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:30 pm

Yes the private shuttle buses certaintly ate up a fair bit of patronage off the 300/350,Boronia.I used to compare the loadings on both services at both ends of the route.The service became very unreliable.Often there would be a 300/350 turn up at Eddy Avenue either together or within a couple of minutes of each other.One would have a dozen pax-the other 2-3pax.Then a gap of 20 minutes then much the same,instead of the advertised 10 minute combine service at that location.The 350 was the worst for reliabilty,in my opinion.I'm not sure the reason there-traffic congestion,or just inadequate run times or recovery.
At one stage,I like you counted the number of shuttle operators at the airport and it was over 100.Going as far as Maitland,Nowra and the Southern Highlands.Most with small fleets of 1-4 vehicles.There are still plenty of operators now,but the biggest one previously,Kingsford Smith Transport, doesn't operate shuttles either for the public or for airline crew.They are more of a charter/school bus operator now,with a vastly smaller fleet.Some operators have operated for over 20 years-and some come and go quickly-but the niches remain,especially for the better quality operators.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:55 pm

burrumbus wrote:At one stage,I like you counted the number of shuttle operators at the airport and it was over 100.Going as far as Maitland,Nowra and the Southern Highlands.Most with small fleets of 1-4 vehicles.There are still plenty of operators now,but the biggest one previously,Kingsford Smith Transport, doesn't operate shuttles either for the public or for airline crew.They are more of a charter/school bus operator now,with a vastly smaller fleet.Some operators have operated for over 20 years-and some come and go quickly-but the niches remain,especially for the better quality operators.

I wonder if the Blue Emu carpark will eat into those long-distance ones. We've used the Shoalhaven area shuttles if going overseas for a long period, but they're expensive. Now if it's only a few days or a week interstate we use the long term carpark and the Carbridge free shuttle to the terminus. It's financially way ahead of using the long-distance shuttle and a bit quicker too.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:07 pm

I'm not sure Tony.The longer distance shuttles are certaintly convenient being able to do door to door rather than 2-3 movements over bus,train or bus.Many will pay for that door to door convenience .The number of operators doing that style of shuttle and the fleet sizes remain reasonably constant-so the work is certaintly still there.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Free Lance » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:34 pm

Last time I checked, Campbelltown to Sydney airport, using local shuttle $110.00 each way, extra pax discounted when included in one pick.
My other (preferred) option local Hire Car @ $150 each way. personalized service with extra pick-ups.
Local taxi not interested in home to railway station so that option is removed. Taxi drivers want to pick and choose so I use the hire car even for local transfers, slightly more expensive, but quality always comes at a cost.
Local coach operator is better option when a group movement is involved, last time (May 2017) for 12 pax it only cost $25.00 per head with home pick-ups.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:43 pm

burrumbus wrote:At one stage,I like you counted the number of shuttle operators at the airport and it was over 100.Going as far as Maitland,Nowra and the Southern Highlands.Most with small fleets of 1-4 vehicles.There are still plenty of operators now,but the biggest one previously,Kingsford Smith Transport, doesn't operate shuttles either for the public or for airline crew.They are more of a charter/school bus operator now,with a vastly smaller fleet.Some operators have operated for over 20 years-and some come and go quickly-but the niches remain,especially for the better quality operators.

Actually, I just dug into my archives, and note that I have 154 operators listed, by operator or accreditation names. I worked as an operations supervisor for a large coach company, and spent many days hanging around the three terminals, so was easy to check out who was around at the time. Obviously I missed some, and yes some of the operators had more than one bus (but I never recorded actual rego numbers). My list was compiled over a number of years, so some of the earlier findings may have given up the game by the time I stopped (around 20 years ago). I still see some of the names from my list running around though, must be money in it.

I am surprised there is not some licencing system for these operators, as seems to happen in other airports, with licences sold to the highest bidder(s) for rights to pick up. SACL could make a fortune out of this.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:06 am

Free Lance wrote:Last time I checked, Campbelltown to Sydney airport, using local shuttle $110.00 each way, extra pax discounted when included in one pick.
My other (preferred) option local Hire Car @ $150 each way. personalized service with extra pick-ups.
Local taxi not interested in home to railway station so that option is removed. Taxi drivers want to pick and choose so I use the hire car even for local transfers, slightly more expensive, but quality always comes at a cost.
Local coach operator is better option when a group movement is involved, last time (May 2017) for 12 pax it only cost $25.00 per head with home pick-ups.

Interesting comparisons there Free Lance.The local coach operators charge is very reasonable indeed.Your comment about the local taxi operator shows just how lousy the taxi industry is,and why Uber and some other operators have taken so much market share off them.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:35 am

boronia wrote:
burrumbus wrote:At one stage,I like you counted the number of shuttle operators at the airport and it was over 100.Going as far as Maitland,Nowra and the Southern Highlands.Most with small fleets of 1-4 vehicles.There are still plenty of operators now,but the biggest one previously,Kingsford Smith Transport, doesn't operate shuttles either for the public or for airline crew.They are more of a charter/school bus operator now,with a vastly smaller fleet.Some operators have operated for over 20 years-and some come and go quickly-but the niches remain,especially for the better quality operators.

Actually, I just dug into my archives, and note that I have 154 operators listed, by operator or accreditation names. I worked as an operations supervisor for a large coach company, and spent many days hanging around the three terminals, so was easy to check out who was around at the time. Obviously I missed some, and yes some of the operators had more than one bus (but I never recorded actual rego numbers). My list was compiled over a number of years, so some of the earlier findings may have given up the game by the time I stopped (around 20 years ago). I still see some of the names from my list running around though, must be money in it.

I am surprised there is not some licencing system for these operators, as seems to happen in other airports, with licences sold to the highest bidder(s) for rights to pick up. SACL could make a fortune out of this.

Thanks for that Boronia.I think for those operators with good advertising,regular clientile,contacts with travel agents,or arrangements with hotels/motels there is good money in it.The good quality ones seem to go for years.The lower quality ones,with poor customer service(KST)just disappear.A few like Sydney Airbus and some of the Russian owners just concentrate on the backpacker market with secondhand buses.Others like Ready to Go concentrate on the higher end hotel market with new buses.The average price for an airport/city hotel transfer is in the range $16-$20 dollars per head per trip.Lets say an average loading of 8 pax per trip will bring in an average $128-$160.From chats with some operators/drivers over the years you can do up to 6-8 trips over an 11-12 hour day.Thats between $768 and $1280 per day using a Hiace,Ford Transit or Renault Master 12-13 seater bus.That most certaintly is good money for a low overhead vehicle.Few operators have a depot,most parking their vehicles at home and most operate their bookings via mobile phones,or website/apps.So the overheads are quite low.
The ones from further afield need to charge higher fares,like Free Lance pointed out,and have lower volume pax numbers.I know one operator in Wollongong claims to operate up to 20 trips per day into the airport.Quality operator with immaculately presented vehicles.But most can do 2-4 trips per day.
The operators in Melbourne who operate timetabled airport shuttles have to pay some sort of fee to access the airport.I am not sure about the on demand operators or the large numbers of parking lot operators .A lot of these operators carry more pax per day than many route service shifts in Melbourne.I know at Brisbane Airport there is a licencing arrangement with the airport owner.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:39 pm

One more factor relating to the impending rumoured service changes to routes 400 & 410 is the actual fact that the 400 will become an all night service as mentioned in a July 2017 press release mentioning the budget for more bus services during the 2017/2018 financial year.

In my own opinion I would imagine the chance of route 400 becoming a region 6 only route (currently region 9) is high.
Currently there are a small number of shifts that involve special running to and from Eastgardens from K-Depot and even one shift requires special running from K-Depot to BJI. Special running between K-Depot and Burwood is minimal and driver relief takes place at Clemton Park. Driver relief used to also take place at Rockdale Stn, staff bus to and from the depot. In some instances, drivers would have a operate 400 in the 1st 1/2 of the shift / relief at Rockdale / meal break at Rockdale / relief at Rockdale again / 2nd 1/2 of shift operate 400 again. There is a large scope for operational efficiency and flexibility, more so than W-Depot for solely operating route 400. Some years ago W-Depot used to have relief for route 400 at Eastgardens, this was common when the 14.5's used to operate at W, after this type of bus was transferred out of W, this relief practice did not last much longer as it was not efficient for cng buses.

On the flip side, when the route 400 becomes an all night service, this would make it possible for W-Depot to operate all services as there would be no long distance special running. If the service was not going to be an all night service, then I couldn't see a W bus specialing all the way from W to Burwood to start the very first early AM service. Besides, some of the early AM services are operated by 14.5's and are full.

I would imagine that STA would be looking around for a replacement for the 14.5's, however, I'm guessing that the franchising situation has now been factored in and the as yet unannounced new operator will have to deal with the situation of 10 x 14.5 units at K which are nearing the end of operational use as per contractual requirements.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:58 pm

Stu wrote:Currently there are a small number of shifts that involve special running to and from Eastgardens from K-Depot and even one shift requires special running from K-Depot to BJI.

I thought they put an end to that HS with route optimisation.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:51 pm

^ There is a particular block of work whereby the bus specials from Eastgardens to K-Depot towards the late evening after completing a number of shuttle trips, this block of work has existed before optimisation and has not changed after optimisation. The other special running involving Eastgardens & K-Depot mostly revolve around the peak periods and are 14.5 buses.

The shift that requires special running from K-Depot to BJI is the result of school holiday shifts, the scheduling sees some blocks of work only changes slightly and other blocks of work are completely new - sometimes with odd results.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Ray » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:59 am

Another possibility - maybe they are off-loading work from the East, so that they can shut down Randwick depot after the light rail opens?

Transfer any remaining work to W and P. Or alternatively, close W and keep R.

Am guessing redevelopment value of the sites would play a role in the final decision!
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:15 am

With the 400 issue they could have stop southbound on Bunnerong Rd by reconfiguring the side street (Hinkler St) into one way only road giving enough room for bus stop that can accommodate a 18m bus. Also a high density standing config of 12.5m bus could work as 14.5m replacement for the 400.

A possibility could be T doing 400/410 runs Rockdale terminus isn't too far & T routes the 418,348,352 go to BJI already. But if the 400 was going all night I doubt it would be Burwood to BJI it would be probably between Rockdale to BJI or even just Eastgardens to BJI.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:49 pm

Stu wrote:There has been a rumour regarding the route 400 that was a actually circulating before the franchising announcement and since the major changes to routes 389 & 440 were done so these routes could be allocated to region 6, maybe the rumour about the 400 could be a possibility.

The rumour is that the 400 would be split into 2 x services with presumably 2 x separate route numbers.
- Burwood to Eastgardens. (400 via airport) (K-Depot)
- Rockdale to BJI. (410 not via airport and all day instead of current peak hour only) (W-Depot)

What are people's thoughts on this rumour?

Would it not be up to the new operator to decide from which depot in region 6 they would operate any service including route 400?
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Linto63 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:04 pm

burrumbus wrote:As I've said before the lack of capacity and productivity of bus and drivers is one of the biggest reasons (although not stated publicly) why STA will lose region 6.
STA won't 'lose' region 6, it will pass to a private contractor per the government's decision. End result will be new chiefs, but same Indians who presumably will continue to be represented by the same union. So not necessarily going to result in a wholesale change in operating practices.
Admin: Moved here as this is more relevant to this thread than to the Bondi Beach thread.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:
Stu wrote:There has been a rumour regarding the route 400 that was a actually circulating before the franchising announcement and since the major changes to routes 389 & 440 were done so these routes could be allocated to region 6, maybe the rumour about the 400 could be a possibility.

The rumour is that the 400 would be split into 2 x services with presumably 2 x separate route numbers.
- Burwood to Eastgardens. (400 via airport) (K-Depot)
- Rockdale to BJI. (410 not via airport and all day instead of current peak hour only) (W-Depot)

What are people's thoughts on this rumour?

Would it not be up to the new operator to decide from which depot in region 6 they would operate any service including route 400?


It did cross my mind that B-Depot could operate the route 400. There would be no driver relief however shed-to-shed operation would promote very minimal dead running between B-Depot and Burwood Westfield.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:15 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Would it not be up to the new operator to decide from which depot in region 6 they would operate any service including route 400?


I wouldn't be surprised if the 'new operator' has already been made aware of successfull tendering before the official announcement which is yet to be made. The impending new timetable would have been under construction long ago despite the press release of such new services being published after the franchising announcement. I think that the new timetables are being designed for STA now which is really for the new operator from July onwards. The implementation of new operations and shifts will be slowly implemented by the new operator who will have to build schedules around the timetable.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:06 am

Unlikely, with government contracts normally the preferred tenderer is advised and announced fairly shortly after. There is then a cooling off period during which the unsuccessful tenders have the opportunity to be debriefed on why their bids were unsuccessful, and the preferred tenderer receives a draft tender for its legal people to peruse. Only after this, which may be some weeks, is the contract signed. Even if the identity of the new operator was kept under wraps, the industry would pretty quickly work out who had won as people started moving to new jobs.

Assuming there is a new timetable that the new operator will have an input into, it won't be able to be part of the process until the contract is signed, and it may not have the necessary staff on the payroll at this point. The people on the bid team may be very different from the leadership team of the new operator. More likely scenario would be like that played out in Newcastle, where the new operator operates the existing services for a period, with a timetable change occurring after it has had time to get its feet under the desk.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:06 pm

Keep your eyes peeled, all, looks like the new operator of region 6 will be announced "in the coming days"

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... us-network

Sydney’s railway fiasco is threatening to spread to the city’s bus services, with hundreds of services set to be privatised.

9NEWS understands in coming days the NSW government will announce the private company that will run Inner-West and Southern Sydney (Region 6) buses.

The move has infuriated unions, who last year walked off the job for 24 hours after the government made it clear the services would be sold off.

“This workforce is furious. This workforce was betrayed by this minister,” RTBU NSW Secretary Chris Prestons said.

“If the bus drivers are not given transitional package that they believe they deserve, 1200 odd drivers, who knows what's going to happen.”

If there is a stop work it will affect hundreds of services from Silverwater to the Anzac Bridge and as far south as Sans Souci.

“Outside of any bargaining period it's an illegal strike action and that's where the RTBU have form we saw wildcat strikes last year,” NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance said.

“Eighty percent of bus services are delivered by private operators and deliver much improved performances,” Mr Constance said.

The government claims timetabling and fares will not change.

It comes as tense negotiations continue between the NSW government and rail unions after the announcement of a 24-hour Sydney Trains strike on January 29.

Train workers want a 6 percent annual pay increase over four years. The government has a wages policy where they will not budge on 2.5 percent.

The strike has been called for the Monday after Australia Day, the traditional day Sydneysiders head back to work.

The train network carries 1.3 million passenger journeys a day with the government admitting a strike will cripple the city.

It’s understood Mr Constance will meet with Unions NSW boss Mark Morey on Friday but will refuse any increase above 2.5 percent.

Labor Leader Luke Foley is calling on Premier Gladys Berejiklian to sideline Mr Constance and take control of negotiations to prevent a strike.

The premier is understood to be leaving talks with Mr Constance for the time being and is confident a resolution can be found before any strike action.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:30 pm

Hopefully we'll be saying byebye to the RTBU as the regions are privatised, so there should be no reason for the same "chaos" as on the trains which are still the captive of one union. At least buses won't be going driverless any time soon, so the jobs are still there.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 pm

We might get a "reverse North & Western" where the bus's presentation goes up noticeably as with the typical expression on a driver's face -all from an overnight lift in morale.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Ray » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:12 am

Was wondering which side of the fence the M30 will end up on - I think the Northern part of the route is longer than the South/East past, and North Sydney is more centrally located than Tempe.

However, T may have more capacity if it returns the 303s to Port Botany.

EDIT: Just checked - running time Taronga Zoo - Town Hall 26 minutes; Sydenham - Town Hall 26 minutes. But would for dead running, North Sydney to Sydenham would still be better than Tempe to the Zoo.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:12 am

With the 303 most trips terminate at Mascot there aren’t that many that continue to Sans Souci. So maybe it could be exclusively worked by the Eastern Region with P doing most trips.

But what’s more interesting the Southern section of the m20 falls geographically fully into Region 9 not 6. Would T continue to operate it as it’s further away from the Gore Hill terminus & the Botany terminus than P but closer to the current Joynton Ave relief/terminus & Wynyard.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Ray » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Good point...didn't think of that one! If they were brave, they'd get rid of it altogether and reinstate 309 into the city. Not much patronage on the Northern end...
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 pm

burrumbus wrote:I am pretty confident that's why the Airport Express 300/350 services were discontinued,aside from a slide in patronage and in reliabilty.Another board member may be able to confirm that.
I may have previously suggested the 300/350 ceased at the time the airport line opened in 2000. Did a bit more research, and they actually didn't finish up until October 2003, and yes it was due to declining patronage. :oops:
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