STA Privatisation / Franchising

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Fleet Lists
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Fleet Lists »

I would agree with that - what is happening with region 6 is totally unrelated to the South East except for the Metrobus route changes. The South East changes will be big enough without worrying about region 6, especially if the Light rail is implemented in two stages as is now most likely.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by stupid_girl »

Linto63 wrote:
stupid_girl wrote:If they are planning for next year, they may as well wait for the light rail CBD and southeast to open.
But TSA's contract only runs until 2026. :D Of the routes region 6 operate only the M10 and M50 are likely to be affected in a major way.
I think CBD light rail may allow some routes to be cut back to Central (interchanging with Haymarket light rail stop).

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

Linto63 wrote:
stupid_girl wrote:If they are planning for next year, they may as well wait for the light rail CBD and southeast to open.
But TSA's contract only runs until 2026. :D Of the routes region 6 operate only the M10 and M50 are likely to be affected in a major way.
Both routes are expected to be deleted at that time.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by swtt »

boronia wrote:
Linto63 wrote:But TSA's contract only runs until 2026. :D Of the routes region 6 operate only the M10 and M50 are likely to be affected in a major way.
Both routes are expected to be deleted at that time.
Can't really see how the western ends of M10 and M50 disappearing totally - more than likely the same number of services but subsumed into short workings of 440 and 510 respectively.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

Why not combine the two western halves into a single route?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by stupid_girl »

swtt wrote:
boronia wrote: Both routes are expected to be deleted at that time.
Can't really see how the western ends of M10 and M50 disappearing totally - more than likely the same number of services but subsumed into short workings of 440 and 510 respectively.
Perhaps western end of M10 will be absorbed by the new Homebush to City B line.

For western end of M50, I think it will be absorbed by one of the existing TSA Victoria Road route (502/504/508) instead of STA route 510.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Linto63 »

It was always planned that M10 and M50 be abolished when CSELR opened, being stated in the EIS from 2013 (page 131). http://data.sydneylightrail.transport.n ... lume_2.pdf As the western parts are largely duplicated by existing routes, these will most likely be increased in frequency rather than new routes introduced.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Fleet Lists »

It does not say that. Instead "Metrobus routes M10 and M50 are not proposed to operate in the Eastern Suburbs as their function is largely undertaken by the CSELR."
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote:"Metrobus routes M10 and M50 are not proposed to operate in the Eastern Suburbs as their function is largely undertaken by the CSELR."
Semantics, but If half of a route is being abolished, then even if the remnants retains an existing number, it is a long way short of being retained. With the M numbered routes in the process of being renumbered, even if the western section were to be retained unscathed, likely they would be renumbered into the 4xx and 5xx series. From Museum station the M10 parallels routes 436-440 through to Norton Street, the Moore Park to Museum via Taylor Square section is already covered by numerous 3xx routes. The M50 parallels numerous 5xx routes from Town Hall to Drummoyne, and the section from Moore Park to Central via Cleveland Street is likewise already covered by numerous 3xx routes.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

I think most of the Central via Cleveland St or Foveaux St routes will also go.

As will the City via Taylor Square services.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Linto63 »

Probably will still be some coverage along these corridors, but much reduced from the current frequencies and not necessarily coming from Anzac Parade.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Cazza »

As there is only one light rail stop between Anzac Pde and Central Station in Surry Hills, I still think there needs to be services every 15 mins down Cleveland St and possibly Albion/Foveaux Sts. The light rail and these bus services cover almost completely different areas.

The only real changes I can see happening to the SE bus network once the light rail is in operation is route consolidation/absorption and truncation of some services.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

The 352 and 355 cover the length of Cleveland St and there is the 304 and 309/310 crossing it. It is not far to walk from Cleveland to Devonshire.

Anyway best to wait and see what the final changes are.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by rogf24 »

Not specifically to do with TSA but this podcast episode on public transport is very interesting in understanding how public transport services can be run.

The best line is '"Privatisation" is so vague it is meaningless'.

https://www.reinventingtransport.org/20 ... t.html?m=1

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Stu »

Rumours are abundant at STA about the 'authority' only having about 2 x years remaining for operating Regions 7,8 & 9. I would imagine that TfNSW would like to franchise the remaining regions before the next election, there is much more time to do so this time around. The announce to franchise Region 6 in 2017 was only 2 years out from the state election. The franchising of three regions at the same time would certainly be a large undertaking, I wonder if the process could be staggered or if the Liberal party are hell bent on doing it asap en masse.

The contract for each region was officially signed in February last year, at that time the CEO was adamant about the contract lasting three years with the two year extension in doubt.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Linto63 »

Unlikely the powers that be at TfNSW want to contract out the remaining regions, they would be more likely to want to retain under their control, keeps the headcount up which makes it a bigger organisation. Any move to privatise will come from government, but if it were to happen, would be well before the 2023 election.

Last time around, Gladys said she would only privatise if the sitting members agreed with it. Those in Regions 7-9 didn't, while the one sitting Liberal member in Region 6 did. While it's early days, Region 6 hasn't so far delivered the step change in performance that was given as the main reason for going down the privatisation path, at least operationally with on time running having fallen, not sure what has been achieved with costs though. Given that the Liberals are in the midst of civil war and Gladys may need every friend she can get, unlikely that she would be able to push it through without again gaining agreement from the affected members.

State Transit's contract is with TfNSW, so effectively with its parent, so should the decision be made to terminate early, what would it do, sue itself? The union would obviously kick up a stink, but as long as the terms of the current Enterprise Bargaining Agreement remained in place as happened with Region 6, not likely to be an impediment.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by kypros1992 »

Stu wrote:Rumours are abundant at STA about the 'authority' only having about 2 x years remaining for operating Regions 7,8 & 9. I would imagine that TfNSW would like to franchise the remaining regions before the next election, there is much more time to do so this time around. The announce to franchise Region 6 in 2017 was only 2 years out from the state election. The franchising of three regions at the same time would certainly be a large undertaking, I wonder if the process could be staggered or if the Liberal party are hell bent on doing it asap en masse.

The contract for each region was officially signed in February last year, at that time the CEO was adamant about the contract lasting three years with the two year extension in doubt.
Doubt that Region 8 will get the franchise treatment. I do remember some rackets by the local Liberal MPs at the time when B-line was going to be run by a different operator until the 11th hour when it went back to STA

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by J_Busworth »

Do we know what Gabrielle Upton's views on privatisation are? She is the only Liberal MP left in R9 after the last election, so she could be the one that makes or breaks any privatisation push for R9. I can't see the Libs having the political capital to do any more privatisation in this term of government. The seat of Coogee appeared to be very anti privatisation of anything and the Libs would surely want to push to get it back next time, although maybe it is a lost cause and R9 can be tendered. I would doubt R7 or R8 would be considered.

On the issue of the M10 and M50, I can't see why they can't become a Drummoyne-City-Leichhardt service, but also acknowledge that this is unlikely and that the services will likely be absorbed into the 440/508 or other TSA routes.

Privatisation of any further STA regions will throw up a bunch of issues surrounding who gets what unless all three go to the same operator. It appears to me that the boundary between R7 and R8 is very blurred? Where exactly do they draw the line?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by stupid_girl »

J_Busworth wrote:Do we know what Gabrielle Upton's views on privatisation are? She is the only Liberal MP left in R9 after the last election, so she could be the one that makes or breaks any privatisation push for R9. I can't see the Libs having the political capital to do any more privatisation in this term of government. The seat of Coogee appeared to be very anti privatisation of anything and the Libs would surely want to push to get it back next time, although maybe it is a lost cause and R9 can be tendered. I would doubt R7 or R8 would be considered.

On the issue of the M10 and M50, I can't see why they can't become a Drummoyne-City-Leichhardt service, but also acknowledge that this is unlikely and that the services will likely be absorbed into the 440/508 or other TSA routes.

Privatisation of any further STA regions will throw up a bunch of issues surrounding who gets what unless all three go to the same operator. It appears to me that the boundary between R7 and R8 is very blurred? Where exactly do they draw the line?
Why does all three have to go to the same operator? Looking at R9 region map, only 200/340/343 crosses the harbour. All other bus routes in the map would undoubtedly stay in R9.
https://transportnsw.info/document/4248 ... rk_map.pdf

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by J_Busworth »

stupid_girl wrote: Why does all three have to go to the same operator? Looking at R9 region map, only 200/340/343 crosses the harbour. All other bus routes in the map would undoubtedly stay in R9.
https://transportnsw.info/document/4248 ... rk_map.pdf
I guess I more meant the divide between R7 and R8. I'm not 100% sure where the divide on the lower north shore is and from memory a large number of routes are shared between depots on both sides. I'm well aware that R9 could very easily be tendered off without much trouble, given the only region it borders is R6.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Stu »

J_Busworth wrote:Do we know what Gabrielle Upton's views on privatisation are? She is the only Liberal MP left in R9 after the last election, so she could be the one that makes or breaks any privatisation push for R9. I can't see the Libs having the political capital to do any more privatisation in this term of government. The seat of Coogee appeared to be very anti privatisation of anything and the Libs would surely want to push to get it back next time, although maybe it is a lost cause and R9 can be tendered. I would doubt R7 or R8 would be considered.

On the issue of the M10 and M50, I can't see why they can't become a Drummoyne-City-Leichhardt service, but also acknowledge that this is unlikely and that the services will likely be absorbed into the 440/508 or other TSA routes.

Privatisation of any further STA regions will throw up a bunch of issues surrounding who gets what unless all three go to the same operator. It appears to me that the boundary between R7 and R8 is very blurred? Where exactly do they draw the line?
Middle Harbour is the natural geological boundary separating Region 7 and Region 8. The Eastern side of the Warringah Fwy is Region 8 and the Western side (North Sydney) is Region 7. When the Warringah Fwy curves towards the left soon becoming the Gore Hill Expwy, the border is purely between suburbs - Northbridge & Cammeray are Region 7 next to Neutral Bay, Cremorne & Cremorne South in Region 8.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by tonyp »

I note from the latest figures that Region 9 patronage has been falling steadily 2 to 3 million per year for a couple of years. Surely that rates as underperformance warranting a review? It's the only metropolitan region that has had falling patronage as far as I can see. If region 9 went, that would account, together with region 6, for 2/3 of STA's patronage. After that it would be a downhill run.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by stupid_girl »

tonyp wrote:I note from the latest figures that Region 9 patronage has been falling steadily 2 to 3 million per year for a couple of years. Surely that rates as underperformance warranting a review? It's the only metropolitan region that has had falling patronage as far as I can see. If region 9 went, that would account, together with region 6, for 2/3 of STA's patronage. After that it would be a downhill run.
It will likely fall again after SE light rail opens.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by tonyp »

Yes but patronage transferred to CSELR is not the fault of the bus operator. This is the last year that we can clearly discern the trend in region 9 bus patronage performance.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Swift »

The liberal voting snobs of the north shore are not going to stand for their buses being run by any entity other than the government owned one they're entitled to.
It's called being a selective commie.
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