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STA Privatisation / Franchising

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Daniel » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Linto63 wrote:Do we know who was shortlisted to bid? Don't recall seeing anything being announced. Presumably some or all of the usual players, CDC, Keolis Downer, Transdev and Transit Systems have thrown their hats in the ring.

Just going off recently registered business names with ASIC:
- Transdev Inner West Pty Ltd
- Premier Sydney Pty Ltd
- Keolis Downer S6 Pty Ltd
- CDC NSW Region 6 Pty Ltd
- Forest Go Bus Region 6 Pty Ltd
- Arriva Group Pty Ltd

Now I am not saying this list is complete or that these are the shortlisted companies, but it is food for thought...
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:52 pm

Thanks Dan for that listing.None of those companies are currently accredited with RMS.It would seem to be a bigger list of contenders for the outer suburban areas,some of which only received 1-3 bids.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby ryanair01 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:56 pm

So Region 6 will probably be privatised to a foreign government owned entity, hmmmm. It makes me frustrated that our own government bodies can't get their act together (or aren't allowed more probably) to compete on the world stage like the French, Germans and Singaporeans etc. I've done advisory work for two of the groups on that list and neither struck me as especially good or highly functioning organisations.

I did hear Go-Ahead were looking at Australia from a Go-Ahead source and would be surprised if Busways didn't put their hat in the ring.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:17 pm

Route 389 will become a Region 6 route from the 26/11/2017, currently it is a Region 9 route - Waverley Depot.
NO route sharing for this service, 100% L-Depot.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:23 pm

I'd like to see Arriva get it as I view them as a London buses organisation, so it would be nice for Sydney's bus scene to have this link to London.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby busrider » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:32 pm

It already has a London connection, Transit Systems has a London operation called Tower Transit.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:06 pm

Swift wrote:I'd like to see Arriva get it as I view them as a London buses organisation, so it would be nice for Sydney's bus scene to have this link to London.

G'day Swift.Arriva Group is actually owned by the German State Railways !!
I' think the government will pick a new player for region 6.The evidence thus far is they want a small medium number of players for the tendered Sydney market.10-15.
I'd like to see Stagecoach in the market.They are in my view easily the best of the large British/International operators.But They tend to steer clear of the tendered markets,prefering their own account businesses,where they maintain innovative,high standard operations which attain patronage growth.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:19 pm

Yes, I recently learned they are from land of the bratwurst sausage.
Years ago an ex Arriva London MCW Metrobus hung around Woy Woy and Gosford with the Arriva logo visible in outline. I have almost viewed it the same as the iconic LT roundel, ever since.
It's German government origins makes it all the more fascinating, especially knowing they ran Leyland, MCW and AEC buses!! I never would have imagined such a scenario, especially in the late 1990s and even into the new millenium.
Now you see why I want Arriva for the win!!
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:25 pm

Route 440 will also become a Region 6 route, once again, NO route sharing.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby In Transit » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:06 am

I wouldn't expect to see any route sharing at all.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:57 am

Stu wrote:Route 389 will become a Region 6 route from the 26/11/2017, currently it is a Region 9 route - Waverley Depot.
No route sharing for this service, 100% L-Depot.
Just to clarify, currently shared by Leichhardt and Waverley.

burrumbus wrote:I think the government will pick a new player for region 6. The evidence thus far is they want a small medium number of players for the tendered Sydney market.
The only way this could happen would be if the rules were that one organisation can only operate a set number or percentage of the regions, in which case those affected wouldn't bother bidding.

The winner will be the bidder that scores highest against pre-determined criteria. Once the process is completed, the losing bidders will be advised of how their bids were scored against those of the winner. Any playing favourites or running a less than fair contest would make the government liable to a legal challenge by an unsuccessful bidder, that if upheld could see the process being deemed null and void and having to be rerun.

burrumbus wrote:I'd like to see Stagecoach in the market. They are in my view easily the best of the large British/International operators. But they tend to steer clear of the tendered markets, preferring their own account businesses, where they maintain innovative, high standard operations which attain patronage growth.
Have a 1,200 bus London operation which is tendered. https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-an ... asts#tab10

Swift wrote:It's German government origins makes it all the more fascinating, especially knowing they ran Leyland, MCW and AEC buses!! I never would have imagined such a scenario, especially in the late 1990s and even into the new millenium.
Arriva only became a German government subsidiary when Deutsche Bahn purchased it in 2010. Prior to that it was a listed company on the London Stock Exchange. http://www.arriva.co.uk/investor_relati ... _arriva_db The British manufactured chassis had all moved on by then.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:40 am

Thanks Linto63 I'd forgotten that Stagecoach re entered the London tendered market after selling the original operation to Transit System's Tower Transit operation.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:59 am

Stagecoach sold its London operations to Macquarie Bank in 2006 for £264 million, buying it back for £53 million four years later. http://www.reuters.com/article/uk-stage ... WW20101015 Transit Systems had nothing to with that operation, entering the London market when it purchased some of FirstGroup's operations in 2013. http://www.transitsystems.com.au/all-la ... -red-buses
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:52 pm

Linto63 wrote:
Stu wrote:Route 389 will become a Region 6 route from the 26/11/2017, currently it is a Region 9 route - Waverley Depot.
No route sharing for this service, 100% L-Depot.
Just to clarify, currently shared by Leichhardt and Waverley.


Also currently shared with R-Depot and P-Depot.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:23 pm

In Transit wrote:I wouldn't expect to see any route sharing at all.
I certainly would expect that there would be a reduction in the number of routes shared, but maybe some of those that terminate deep away from the core region may be split, 400, 418, 530 etc.

Assuming that routes 389 and 440 do become the exclusive responsibility of zone 6, would result in a round trip of about 25km to get the early start and late finish buses to and from Leichhardt or Tempe at the beginning and end of each day. But then maybe a deal can be negotiated to sublet a corner at say Waverley depot for a small number of buses to stable each night.

IIRC, Transdev do this in Melbourne with its cross-city SmartBus routes. It's these sought of things that the bidders will likely be running a slide rule over to try and gain an advantage over each other.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm

If 389 & 440 do go exclusive Region 6 the first & last trips I would expect wouldn't go all the way to Bondi Jn but only go as far as the CBD for example.

Guess the 379 would be operated by Region 9 exclusively. Interesting in terms of bus requirements guess L would need a higher bus requirement.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:32 pm

Do we necessarily have to keep each other's runs quarantined so strictly. Surely STA can share specific routes with whoever wins region six? The world won't implode.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby grog » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:32 am

That depends if there is any innovation in how services are delivered. If you were to move to a headway based system like London (I.e. ‘Bus every 6-8 minutes all day’ with active headway management) you would need an operator to control the entire route.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:48 am

Frosty wrote:If 389 & 440 do go exclusive Region 6 the first & last trips I would expect wouldn't go all the way to Bondi Jn but only go as far as the CBD for example.
Maybe not specifically on these routes, but early morning / late night short workings happen already. But there will likely be some that still need to run dead for the full length.

Swift wrote:Do we necessarily have to keep each other's runs quarantined so strictly. Surely STA can share specific routes with whoever wins region six?
If each operator was franchised and keeping the revenue, may be a bit more tricky. But as it is only a contract for service provision, with revenue remaining centrailsed then fairly simple. For example, Region 6 would be responsible for the xx:00 and xx:30 departures and Region 9 the xx:15 and xx:45 departures. ComfortDelGro and Ventura manage it on route 900 in Melbourne. https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/route/view/8914/
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:53 pm

I wonder what problems this will give in Transport Info.
I have noticed that they have just added a two digit operator code to the URL for timetables and some other URLs. In the case of State Transit a different code has been added for each region - 15 for Western, 16 for North Western, 17 for Northern and 18 for Eastern - 400 and 389 are both 18.
All the Northern routes including B1 are 17 but route 257 which is listed under B line changes is 16.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:33 pm

Linto63 wrote:
Frosty wrote:If 389 & 440 do go exclusive Region 6 the first & last trips I would expect wouldn't go all the way to Bondi Jn but only go as far as the CBD for example.
Maybe not specifically on these routes, but early morning / late night short workings happen already. But there will likely be some that still need to run dead for the full length.

You'd still have to get buses to BJI to start inbound services early.

At least with the 440, there are parallel services along Oxford St to take up some of the slack.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:54 pm

Though Leichhardt depot to Bondi Jn is only around 10km. I can think of long run early run from a depot to a terminus being the 4:50am Saturday Sans Souci 303 departure that's 15km from Port Botany to Sans Souci.

grog wrote:That depends if there is any innovation in how services are delivered. If you were to move to a headway based system like London (I.e. ‘Bus every 6-8 minutes all day’ with active headway management) you would need an operator to control the entire route.


Headway based system would be a better solution for routes that have chronic traffic issues like the 370 but I think you could have multiple operators but you would need a third party operations centre similar to a railway signalling centre essentially.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:18 pm

TfNSW could take over the STA "radio room" and use it to control all bus operations.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:54 pm

There will be no full length dead running for route 389 due to the short workings that begin from the city in the morning and end in the city on the late evening. The first service from City (King St & George St) will also form the first service from BJI.

The same goes for route 440, plenty of short workings from L-Depot towards BJI in the morning. The first service from L-Depot will also form the first service from BJI.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:I wonder what problems this will give in Transport Info.
I have noticed that they have just added a two digit operator code to the URL for timetables and some other URLs. In the case of State Transit a different code has been added for each region - 15 for Western, 16 for North Western, 17 for Northern and 18 for Eastern - 400 and 389 are both 18.
All the Northern routes including B1 are 17 but route 257 which is listed under B line changes is 16.


Interesting, I'll check theses codes out. The route 257 is currently allocated to M-Depot.
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