STA Privatisation / Franchising

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boronia
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

The STA has been doing this for more than 20 years. I had many discussions back then with their senior scheduling staff about it. Putting more buses into a route with no actual increase in services, just to maintain timetables, adds to the cost of that route. It is one of the reasons STA's cost per kilometre is so much higher than the privates.

We've had many mentions here about the lack of recovery time in private scheduling, esp at weekends when they would be paying penalty rates.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Swift »

Liamena wrote:There is no way that a giant French multinational, or anyone else, is going to sign a contract which contains penalty clauses for the effects of traffic congestion.
I wouldn't be so certain of that. They would probably do anything to get their foot in the door to dominate transport here, even run at break even or a loss for a period of time. They are proliferating in the United States, taking over cities' bus runs and running driver conditions and operations into the ground. Who knows what they'll do around here once they gain enough momentum in our bus scene?
Besides, penalising contract holders for traffic conditions has been going on already and non of them show signs of pulling out.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

The tender price would be buffered up to include an allowance for such penalties. Some of the "bonuses" they get could also negate the financial "loss".
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Frosty »

But some STA workings I can see why STA is costs are so high due dead running and getting to termini. STA turn around times are tight like the 370 10 mins at each at end to turnaround it can easily loose ten mins going from Coogee to Kensington or down Glebe Point Rd. Though some obvious reasons why buses can't start the trip on time is the travel from the depot to the terminus. I find Randwick is pretty bad with getting to Bondi Jn/Coogee terminus. But Port Botany is okay at getting to its terminuses on time.

Some idea I can see at major idea is have drivers simply change over at the end of each trip at major termini/depots. Similar to how the train network runs. If the privates can reduce the cost of running bus services in region 6 without making the service worse then at least thats a benefit to privatisation.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

I found a very good example recently of why TfNSW might be fed up with STA administration.

A few months ago, there was some rationalisation of bus stops along Anzac Pde Kensington due to the LR construction. The outbound stop near Ascot St was closed. Not a problem in itself; despite the prominent notices, for a while passengers kept waiting there and wondering why the buses didn't stop. But last Saturday, I noticed some buses were stopping there again. On checking, I see that not only had the "stop closed" signs had been removed, but new service info and timetables had been fitted into the blades (dated 17/7/17). So I thought I would try it out on Sunday and tried hailing a couple, which sailed straight past. So I went to the next stop, and asked a couple of drivers if they knew about it: "we haven't been told anything" and "its not on the Opal console, so we can't stop there". I put in feedback yesterday and got a phone call this afternoon from the "customer relations section" of STA to say that, yes, the stop had been reopened mid last week and "I guess we better put up a notice for the drivers this week". He then tried to sheet the blame on to TfNSW for "lack of co-ordination".

In a separate exercise, the m50 was detoured from Anzac Pde to Alison Rd a couple of months ago. Again prominent signs were put up, with the information that passengers wishing to travel to Coogee should catch the 370 "from this stop" (this was placed at three stops north of Todman Ave, where the 370 actually cuts in). It took nearly 3 weeks of feedback to get the signs removed.

Now this new sign at Ascot St shows the m50 as operating at the stop, along with its timetables. I haven't seen any go past yet, though.

It is great to see administration that doesn't even know where its services run.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by burrumbus »

boronia wrote:The STA has been doing this for more than 20 years. I had many discussions back then with their senior scheduling staff about it. Putting more buses into a route with no actual increase in services, just to maintain timetables, adds to the cost of that route. It is one of the reasons STA's cost per kilometre is so much higher than the privates.

We've had many mentions here about the lack of recovery time in private scheduling, esp at weekends when they would be paying penalty rates.
Agreed Boronia.STA's costs per km are about $3.00 more than the privates.Thats considerable and hard to justify,given STA's performance as tonyp would say.As you say some of that is due to the cost of adding additional buses into the mix.Some of it is due to congestion.Some of it is due to excessive dead running and specialling between routes.Some of it is due to the relative lack of patterning between routes making for less efficient operation.Some of it is in the way buses and drivers are rostered.Some of it is due to the longer lay over periods compared to the privates.Some of it is due to the large head office and depot staffing comparitive to the privates.Some of it is due to the higher costs of maintaining the bus fleet,due to the intensive work they operate and the harder operating enviroment comparitive to some privates..Some of the costs are justified,others not.
A lot of the private routes,especially station feeders don't need a lot of recovery time,due to their shorter distances and more predictable traffic flows.
It's all interesting and relevant.The government will save millions of dollars on the franchising of region 6.I'll also take a punt and say the government will try to find an additional player to take this contract.They want a number of players to keep costs down and everyone competitive.I believe the main rationale behind the franchising,aside from saving money is to extract greater productivity from the buses and drivers.Simply more trips per bus and driver shift per day,to carry more pax,especially at peak.The biggest issue in my book is to inject more quality into the services.That's my major beef with the current contracts.The quality isn't there to attract more pax,on average.
But as others have said on this forum.another big issue is in bus priority.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by burrumbus »

Swift wrote:
Liamena wrote:There is no way that a giant French multinational, or anyone else, is going to sign a contract which contains penalty clauses for the effects of traffic congestion.
I wouldn't be so certain of that. They would probably do anything to get their foot in the door to dominate transport here, even run at break even or a loss for a period of time. They are proliferating in the United States, taking over cities' bus runs and running driver conditions and operations into the ground. Who knows what they'll do around here once they gain enough momentum in our bus scene?
Besides, penalising contract holders for traffic conditions has been going on already and non of them show signs of pulling out.
Evening Swift.We only need look as far as Melbourne to see that Transdev tendered really low to gain the contract there.We only need to see the lack of quality and performance in their operation ,DUE TO THE LOW PRICE SUBMITTED,and the subsequent patronage loss to see the Victorian government picked the wrong operator.The contract area is also way too big to manage.It would be harder here to try to drive down drivers wages deeply.With the living costs in Sydney and Melbourne you need to pay good money to attract drivers,especially the inner city.As Stu mentioned in a post many STA drivers live long distances from the depots.You need to pay well to attract those staff.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

Frosty wrote:But some STA workings I can see why STA is costs are so high due dead running and getting to termini. STA turn around times are tight like the 370 10 mins at each at end to turnaround it can easily loose ten mins going from Coogee to Kensington or down Glebe Point Rd. Though some obvious reasons why buses can't start the trip on time is the travel from the depot to the terminus. I find Randwick is pretty bad with getting to Bondi Jn/Coogee terminus. But Port Botany is okay at getting to its terminuses on time.

Some idea I can see at major idea is have drivers simply change over at the end of each trip at major termini/depots. Similar to how the train network runs. If the privates can reduce the cost of running bus services in region 6 without making the service worse then at least thats a benefit to privatisation.
Changing the operator is not likely to change many of those conditions.
It would take a (say) Veolia driver just as long to get from Randwick Depot to Bondi Junction as an STA driver.

We do not yet know that a private operator will reduce costs in Region 6. It is all speculation, based on flawed comparisons with other regions.

Comparing the bus network with the train network is also flawed as their operating conditions are completely differfent, and I would suggest their staffing procedures are anything but financially efficient. Changing drivers will not make the buses run faster.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote:I found a very good example recently of why TfNSW might be fed up with STA administration.

It is great to see administration that doesn't even know where its services run.
Time to cut these fat cats in headquarters of their bloated salaries they plainly aren't earning.
Here is another head start for any would be contract holder to make savings.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by simonl »

Liamena wrote:...

You could propose longer turnaround times built into the timetable to buffer this effect. That would come at the cost of lower overall productivity of vehicles and drivers. It's hardly rocket science, presumably they have thought of that and probably even tried it.
That is exactly what I am suggesting. Also more pro active insertion of non rostered trips to cover a late bus's next trip.

You might get a lower productivity in the sense of $ per vehicle-km but more people will use the service over time if it is more reliable.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Stu »

^ Having a spare bus or two in the City or at other busy terminals would be helpful.

Years ago, K-depot used to supply the drivers to work in the former 'Transit Shop' at Circular Quay, the driver would operate a 423 into the City, leave the bus on Loftus St, work in the Transit Shop and then operate a 423 back to Kingsgrove. In this case it was not possible to operate a trip to cover another late running trip although it was helpful as a replacement bus if another bus broke down in the city.

- Wynyard: spare bus existed from N until 2013.
- Circular Quay (Philip St): spare bus from P existed until 2015.

Some years ago now, on extremely hot days there was one Merc MkII or III placed at Rockdale (Railway St lay over) and another placed at Canterbury Station. This was in case a gas Scania over heated and became defective and presumably if the defective bus was nearby the terminus.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Swift »

Stu wrote: Some years ago now, on extremely hot days there was one Merc MkII or III placed at Rockdale (Railway St lay over) and another placed at Canterbury Station. This was in case a gas Scania over heated and became defective and presumably if the defective bus was nearby the terminus.
In the years I drove, I can't recall one 0305 with a worrying temperature on a scorcher
It was standard on a Scania low floor and happened a couple of times on an 0405.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

Stu wrote:^ Having a spare bus or two in the City or at other busy terminals would be helpful.

Years ago, K-depot used to supply the drivers to work in the former 'Transit Shop' at Circular Quay, the driver would operate a 423 into the City, leave the bus on Loftus St, work in the Transit Shop and then operate a 423 back to Kingsgrove. In this case it was not possible to operate a trip to cover another late running trip although it was helpful as a replacement bus if another bus broke down in the city.

- Wynyard: spare bus existed from N until 2013.
- Circular Quay (Philip St): spare bus from P existed until 2015.

Some years ago now, on extremely hot days there was one Merc MkII or III placed at Rockdale (Railway St lay over) and another placed at Canterbury Station. This was in case a gas Scania over heated and became defective and presumably if the defective bus was nearby the terminus.
Also years ago, there were the city layovers at York St North and later Hickson Rd, where buses could be parked up during the day to reduce empty running back to the depots.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Frosty »

Maybe they should have some buses parked up at Lee St Railway Sq during the off-peak there's more than enough room. And a spare bus at Nth Bondi terminus. Are there any spare buses at Bondi Jn Station ?

I was thinking why some of STA's costs are so high the tolls STA has to pay though mostly applies to the Western, Eastern & Northern and kind of Tempe & Kingsgrove. $4 for every bus that crosses the Sydney Harbour bridge. Or for Eastern Depots Tempe & Kingsgrove $14.18 via the ED. Though at least it isn't Hillsbus where its $35 from its depots to the City.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

There used to be a spare at BJI, but W depot is only a km away. But a spare bus is no good without a driver, so it can't really be a substitute for late running.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by AEC Decker »

boronia wrote:There used to be a spare at BJI, but W depot is only a km away. But a spare bus is no good without a driver, so it can't really be a substitute for late running.
AEC Decker did a spare (or work as directed) shift with bus (Leopard of course :mrgreen: ) at Edgecliff Station when on loan to W in 1981. :shock:
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Stu »

Hickson Rd lay over was before my time however I was made aware of this in recent years by a now retired driver who used to travel from W-Depot to pick up her bus at Hickson Rd. I wonder if there were also drivers & buses from R and L that used Hickson Rd lay over?

It will be interesting to see if the proposed new operator of region 6 makes better usage of the available meal rooms at terminals and also drivers having a meal at a different depot whilst keeping the same bus. The idea of keeping the same bus all day and having a meal break at another depot or stand alone meal room has become much rarer occasion these days at sta.

BJI meal room.
- 400 (K), m40 (M) & 381 (R): weekends only.

Rockdale meal room.
- 476, 477 & 478 (T): weekday & weekend.
- 492 (K): weekday.

Edgecliff Interchange meal room.
- ESR rail replacement services (Y). (extremely rare)

Circular Quay East meal room:
- has not been used as a formal meal room for standard routes for many many years.
- was previously used by Sydney Explorer drivers.
- was previously used by Free Shuttle 555 drivers when this service was first introduced unruly the service loop was changed and no longer operated via Elizabeth St.

Chatswood Interchange meal room.
- no shifts scheduled (maybe due to not enough lay over space for a long duration of time)

Lee St lay over (Railway Sq.) meal room.
- Demountable previously used by Hillsbus and STA ex 555 drivers.

Homebush Bay meal room. (Southern end)
- used during special events only (tired looking demountable).

Robertson Rd ('Rob Rd') meal room.
- demolished to make way for the CSELR. Unused for many years and had been looking run down and derelict for almost as long.


Other depots.
- m50 (L): meal at (R) weekend.
- m20 (M): meal at (P) weekday.
- 400 (K): meal at (P) weekday.

* ESR rail replacement & City Circle rail replacement:
Buses from various depots are rostered to have a meal break at other depots due to insufficient over space at the terminals concerned due to the high amount of buses rostered to rail replacement duties.
Example: ESR - buses from M & Y will be scheduled to have a meal at W and buses from V will be scheduled to have a meal at R.
Example: CBD - buses from M & Y will be scheduled to have a meal at L and buses from V & F will be scheduled to have a meal at N.
Example: Airport line - buses from K will be scheduled to have a meal at T .
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by boronia »

I'm not sure about current practices, but in the past private drivers were not always provided with meal facilities. You got a break, and were expected to make your own arrangements.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by burrumbus »

Most of the privates still have meal breaks at various terminus,Boronia.Drivers just do their own thing.
Thanks for your list Stu.I reckon having meal breaks away from depots and drivers having the same buses on many shifts will be an early change for the new operator of region 6.It will be one way to reduce dead running and excessive specialling to try to lift the productivity
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K/Downer underpays Newcastle bus drivers after privatisation

Post by Newcastle Flyer »

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/48314 ... on/?cs=303
Keolis Downer underpays Newcastle bus drivers after privatisation

MICHAEL McGOWAN
3 Aug 2017, 2:30 p.m.


NEWCASTLE’S bus drivers have been repeatedly underpaid since a private company assumed control of the city’s public transport system in July.

The Newcastle Herald has seen communication to staff from Keolis Downer’s chief executive in the Hunter, Campbell Mason, acknowledging “discrepancies in pay for some staff” since the French-Australian joint venture firm took over the Newcastle buses and ferries contract at the beginning of last month.

In the letter to staff Mr Mason acknowledged issues with pay and said that while “a number of issues identified in the initial payroll” had been fixed, it was “of course possible that there may be some discrepancies this time around”.

“Correcting any such issues is a priority for us,” Mr Mason states in the missive.
The Herald has been told that about 70 workers have been affected, with some drivers are owed about $200 from the previous fortnight’s pay, and others short by about $600 in the latest pay period.

“When people live pay to pay and have that much missing its not good,” one driver said on the condition of anonymity.

Keolis Downer has been approached for comment, but the Herald understands the issue relates to the company’s payroll system.

The NSW government awarded Keolis Downer the contract to run the city’s buses, ferries and future light rail services last year.

For the first time in Australia, one company was awarded a contract to operate a city’s entire transport system.

At the time Transport Minister Andrew Constance said it was a “new era” for the city’s transport that would “guarantee a better deal for locals”.

On Thursday his office was not aware of the pay issue when contacted by the Herald.

Port Stephens MP Kate Washington accused the company of having “prioritised its new logo instead of looking after its workers”.

“It’s only taken a month for the government’s empty promises that we would see improved services and workers’ rights retained, to have fallen by the wayside in the first month of operation,” she said.

“The NSW government and its obsession with privatisation is hurting the people who can afford it the least.

“Every bus driver has a family who depends on their pay packet. Failing to pay workers for the hours they’ve worked hurts families who live in our communities.”

Mr Constance was asked about the pay issue by Ms Washington on Thursday.

He said Keolis Downer were “going to rectify” the issue, calling it a “combination of overpayment and underpayment”.

In a statement to the Herald issued through the transport department Mr Mason said Keolis Downer was “aware of the issues and immediately moved to rectify the situation”.

“We have communicated these efforts to staff and unions and will continue to do so until the issue is fully resolved,” he said.

“We are committed to ensuring that those who have been left out of pocket have been repaid as a matter of priority.”
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Swift »

It's only a clerical error THIS TIME.
As soon as I saw that F word -French, it had me concerned immediately. While pay may not be an issue in the foreseeable future, conditions will. How will security and incident management go? What about the night duty charge man who is on duty to lend support should an incident occur out of office hours? Will they go?
There is that incident with a crazy drunk commandeering a late night CDC service in the LCT. There was no one on duty except a janitor at the depot to assist.
If the Liberals are so confident about this model leading to better service delivery
than what the STA can do with these intensive urban services, why not do it in their own back yard first instead of imposing it on Labor and Greens held areas?
This suggests they are anything but.
Have they forgotten STA stepping in during the BUS 2000 fiasco during the Olympic Games?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Linto63 »

Liamena wrote:There is no way that a giant French multinational, or anyone else, is going to sign a contract which contains penalty clauses for the effects of traffic congestion.
More likely that the contract will include an extension option, exercisable if certain key performance data is met and the option to penalise if activities entirely within the control of the contractor fall below a certain standard.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Stu »

During the month of August there will be representatives from interested parties visiting Region 6 depots on a guided tour. No word on which companies these representatives are employed by and I wouldn't be surprised if they did not wear attire that would display who they work for.

I think that the guvmint knows which company that they want to operate Region 6. The 'market sounding' period for registration of interested parties lasted for less than two weeks and the tender opened soon after.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by burrumbus »

Thats an extremely quick market sounding period,Stu.I think you are correct in your analysis there.We'll have to get the spies out to work out the reps from each operator!!
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Post by Frosty »

I must wonder who were these interested parties I guess it would be the usual lot Busways, Transdev :roll: , Transit Systems, is CDC is in it ? I must wonder any new potential operators not currently operating services Sydney such as Go-Ahead group or Stagecoach group from the UK.
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