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STA Privatisation / Franchising

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:36 pm

What region would the North Sydney depot fall under if ether region 7 or region 8 get franchised out to a private operator
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:25 pm

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Gusbus » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:27 am

tonyp wrote:I note from the latest figures that Region 9 patronage has been falling steadily 2 to 3 million per year for a couple of years. Surely that rates as underperformance warranting a review? It's the only metropolitan region that has had falling patronage as far as I can see. If region 9 went, that would account, together with region 6, for 2/3 of STA's patronage. After that it would be a downhill run.

That is to be expected. The Region 6 split is the cause of this as routes m10, m50, 305, 308, 348, 389 and 400 were all Region 9 contract routes prior to the Region 6/9 split. People using those services are now counted as Region 6 customers.

No doubt TSA will claim their resulting increase in patronage demonstrates their success in Region 6!!!

When those routes are removed from the patronage figures Region 9 has experienced healthy growth, driven by the success of the 304 and especially the revamped 333 service.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:40 am

Gusbus wrote:
No doubt TSA will claim their resulting increase in patronage demonstrates their success in Region 6!!!


So will the transport minister, no doubt.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 am

Per State Transit's annual reports, patronage figures for the last 3 years:
2015/16 204 million
2016/17 213 million
2017/18 202 million

The latter is reported as being 5.4% growth, presumably stripping out the Newcastle operations which ceased being a part of State Transit in July 2017. So while not broken down by region, overall patronage has risen.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby In Transit » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:33 am

Swift wrote:
Gusbus wrote:
No doubt TSA will claim their resulting increase in patronage demonstrates their success in Region 6!!!


So will the transport minister, no doubt.


The govt has already done this, Rod Staples citing the very significant patronage increase in Region 6 (not accounting for the fact the vast bulk is simply reallocated from Region 9).

It’s similar to an article the other day showing the 362 as one of Sydney’s least patronised routes. On an annual basis of course it is; a 30 minute frequency only on summer weekends. Never mind that every 362 trip will carry a significant multiple of the busiest on demand trips that the minister is so enamoured of... Selective use of numbers will always be with us.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:21 am

Region 9 patronage was falling before the privatisation of region 6 so that doesn't explain it all.

Of course total STA patronage has been rising because the other three regions (prior to excision of region 6) were rising which offset the fall in region 9. The general picture with the patronage of STA and its predecessors over the years is that, after it lost the cream off the former tram patronage in the 1960s, it remained static for many years, only rising slowly again with the greater population growth of the last twenty years. Overall it has failed to stay in synch with population growth, thus has failed to grow patronage over the years.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:10 pm

If we look back long term, the proliferation of cars and the decreasing cost of owning and running one (tolls aside) was always going to cause a drop in public transport patronage.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:18 pm

See Sydney Demographics are changing as discussed in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89945
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:04 pm

Linto63 wrote:If we look back long term, the proliferation of cars and the decreasing cost of owning and running one (tolls aside) was always going to cause a drop in public transport patronage.

That was always less of an effect in inner Sydney than in the private bus areas of outer Sydney. Of all the major Australian capital city government bus systems, only Sydney and Adelaide had a long term patronage loss 1970 to 2013. Melbourne and Brisbane had slight growth (10-15%), while Perth's bus patronage growth was some 50%. During that period Sydney's population grew about 60%, Melbourne's about 65%, Brisbane's 130%, Adelaide's 50% and Perth's 170%. Bus patronage in all cities failed to keep pace with population growth (though in Perth that's mitigated by a lot of bus patronage transferring to the new rail system), but in Sydney and Adelaide patronage growth was negative (- 5% and - 10% respectively). (BITRE figures)
Last edited by tonyp on Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:12 pm

Yes but "Perf" probably started from a lower bar to begin with.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:07 pm

Swift wrote:Yes but "Perf" probably started from a lower bar to begin with.

No, Same as Adelaide and a bit below Brisbane.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Gusbus » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:30 pm

In Transit wrote:
It’s similar to an article the other day showing the 362 as one of Sydney’s least patronised routes. On an annual basis of course it is; a 30 minute frequency only on summer weekends. Never mind that every 362 trip will carry a significant multiple of the busiest on demand trips that the minister is so enamoured of... Selective use of numbers will always be with us.

Exactly. Certainly more than the on demand trial in the ministers electorate, where in a desperate attempt to increase the usage, the area is being significantly expanded and a fare free period provided!

The numbers must be averaged across the year, also the article failed to mention the route 342 or any other private operator route..

Patronage on the 362 is actually quite healthy with an average of 15 to 25 people on each trip during the summer weekends. Also patronage has been rising slighty year on year since it’s inception. I can think of countless other routes I’d cancel before the 362!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Linto63 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:56 am

Replied here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84899&start=75 seeing we are getting off topic.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby In Transit » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:47 am

tonyp wrote:Region 9 patronage was falling before the privatisation of region 6 so that doesn't explain it all.

Of course total STA patronage has been rising because the other three regions (prior to excision of region 6) were rising which offset the fall in region 9. The general picture with the patronage of STA and its predecessors over the years is that, after it lost the cream off the former tram patronage in the 1960s, it remained static for many years, only rising slowly again with the greater population growth of the last twenty years. Overall it has failed to stay in synch with population growth, thus has failed to grow patronage over the years.


Tony, are you taking this from TfNSW's online statistics? As the Region 6/Region 9 example over the last 12 months shows, these statistics have to be taken with a grain of salt when regionally based. They aren't adjusted to reflect changes in circumstances - the transfer of routes to region 6 demonstrates that. I suspect if you broke this down to a route by route basis, you would get a different picture regarding region 9 (and by extension, the other regions too).

This is not take away from your point about patronage versus population growth, but clearly there is a role for government in deciding whether to maintain mode share or change it which has had a big impact over the years (and here I draw a distinction between simply saying they will, and taking active and effective steps to achieve it). In pointing to STA versus population growth, its also worth noting that population growth in Sydney hasn't been at the same rate in STA areas and outside those areas. Again, not an STA apologist by any stretch, but the bigger target here is government, both policy and implementation. Simply bashing away at STA seems counter productive - when I first start dealing with buses in Sydney 25 years ago, I was shocked at the rudimentary operating nature of the private operators, and the way in which their public timetables seemed purely designed to fill the gaps between when they operated their core business - school trips. There's a lot not to like about Sydney bus services historically, both govt and private operators.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stonesourscotty » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:15 pm

Hi just wondering if i'm being silly or if the Busabout fleetlist is missing from the fleetlists section or if it's under a different name?

In reply to the person above that says sydney and adelaide have lower bus use they also have very high fare evasion compared to Perth Melbourne and Brisbane from my Observations. I see fare evasion on a daily basis with Transit Systems (835 Route) and Busways (Penrith/Glendenning Depots) and in Adelaide i saw Fare evasion on nearly every route i rode especially towards the Port.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:36 pm

Stonesourscotty wrote:In reply to the person above that says sydney and adelaide have lower bus use they also have very high fare evasion compared to Perth Melbourne and Brisbane from my Observations. I see fare evasion on a daily basis with Transit Systems (835 Route) and Busways (Penrith/Glendenning Depots) and in Adelaide i saw Fare evasion on nearly every route i rode especially towards the Port.


Fare evasion is obviously a significant issue. I haven't seen any transit officers in Region 9 since the old Moore Park Busway closed, and before that I would occasionally see them at the rest break lay over at Robertson Road but never anywhere else. I doubt that it has such a large effect on patronage figures as to distort them to become unrepresentative, but it could have some small effect.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Daniel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:03 pm

Stonesourscotty wrote:Hi just wondering if i'm being silly or if the Busabout fleetlist is missing from the fleetlists section or if it's under a different name?

There is no publicly available link at the request of the operator.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby sunnyyan » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:48 pm

J_Busworth wrote:Fare evasion is obviously a significant issue. I haven't seen any transit officers in Region 9 since the old Moore Park Busway closed, and before that I would occasionally see them at the rest break lay over at Robertson Road but never anywhere else. I doubt that it has such a large effect on patronage figures as to distort them to become unrepresentative, but it could have some small effect.


There are often transit officers in Darlinghurst on Oxford St (outbound) during the morning peak.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:56 pm

sunnyyan wrote:
There are often transit officers in Darlinghurst on Oxford St (outbound) during the morning peak.

They need to target times when it's more likely. People going to work are unlikely to offend and offenders are more likely to be later travellers.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:48 am

Labor has recently sent out an email and now some of their MPs have stuff on Facebook talking about how plans are well underway for the privatisation of R7 in 2021. Constance confirmed as such in Budget Estimates according to the transcripts.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby kypros1992 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:48 am

J_Busworth wrote:Labor has recently sent out an email and now some of their MPs have stuff on Facebook talking about how plans are well underway for the privatisation of R7 in 2021. Constance confirmed as such in Budget Estimates according to the transcripts.


transcript beats campaign emails

The Hon. DANIEL MOOKHEY: Good. So when are you commencing the tender? That question was not put to you.
Mr ANDREW CONSTANCE: I said I have not announced anything in relation to regions seven, eight or nine.


https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdoc ... stance.pdf

(also all buses low floor pushed to dec 2022)
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:48 am

kypros1992 wrote:
(also all buses low floor pushed to dec 2022)

That would be minimum standard which is one accessible entrance, or low-entry.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:44 pm

kypros1992 wrote:https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/12401/Transcript%20-%2030%20August%2019%20-%20UNCORRECTED%20-%20HIGHLIGHTED%20FOR%20QONS%20-%20PC%206%20-%20Transport%20and%20Roads%20-%20Constance.pdf
Constance is being a bit evasive in some of his answers (but then he is a politician), but there appear to be some prats on that committee.
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