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Bondi corridor study

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Bondi corridor study

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:04 am

Waverley Council has released a study by PB on PT options to unblock the present capacity problems on this corridor:

http://www.waverley.nsw.gov.au/__data/a ... erhoff.PDF

It follows an earlier rather lacklustre AECOM study on putting trams back on the corridor, which didn't come to any workable conclusion. The PB study doesn't come up with firm recommendations either, other than to recommend further study of several options, of which the bus options seem most feasible. It would obviously help if TfNSW didn't have such restrictive bus operation and design attitudes that really put an iron clamp on the possibilities.

All rather between a institutional rock and an urban-form hard place as far as I can see.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby rogf24 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:53 am

Is it just not feasible to go via Bondi Rd for a tram? Just make a clearway while construsting the tram line and compulsory​ acquire the two apartment blocks in the old ROW.

I would like to see a train line though.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:17 pm

rogf24 wrote:Is it just not feasible to go via Bondi Rd for a tram? Just make a clearway while construsting the tram line and compulsory​ acquire the two apartment blocks in the old ROW.

I would like to see a train line though.


A train line is the option I'd prefer. Even just with a station at the beach it would take enough pressure off the buses to enable them to cope with intermediate traffic. But the demand wouldn't be there to justify it apparently, unless Bondi is redeveloped like Hong Kong.

If you read the report, there are multiple issues with putting the trams back, one of the biggest of which is that TfNSW is bucking a world trend and is opposed to "Vienna" (drive-over) platforms, which pretty-well stymies putting a tram down a 4 lane street without devastating property demolition on either side. It's a very crowded environment, all intensely built over with no alternative routes for general traffic and people wanting parking everywhere.

If TfNSW simply equipped the corridor with all artic buses, 100% low floor with all door boarding through 3 or 4 doors and some bus lane and queue jumps they could give the present operation a significant capacity lift and alleviate all this angst.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:56 pm

The obvious answer is to put in a bus lane and ramp up limited stop buses.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:11 pm

simonl wrote:The obvious answer is to put in a bus lane and ramp up limited stop buses.

Well read what the report says about all this and see what you think.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby rogf24 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:47 pm

tonyp wrote:A train line is the option I'd prefer. Even just with a station at the beach it would take enough pressure off the buses to enable them to cope with intermediate traffic. But the demand wouldn't be there to justify it apparently, unless Bondi is redeveloped like Hong Kong.

If you read the report, there are multiple issues with putting the trams back, one of the biggest of which is that TfNSW is bucking a world trend and is opposed to "Vienna" (drive-over) platforms, which pretty-well stymies putting a tram down a 4 lane street without devastating property demolition on either side. It's a very crowded environment, all intensely built over with no alternative routes for general traffic and people wanting parking everywhere.

If TfNSW simply equipped the corridor with all artic buses, 100% low floor with all door boarding through 3 or 4 doors and some bus lane and queue jumps they could give the present operation a significant capacity lift and alleviate all this angst.


Yeah, I always thought that it would be to hard to make the tram work without clearways during and post construction and without driver-over platforms.

Having said that, Bondi is already quite a dense suburb for Sydney, I don't think it would hurt to make Bondi Beach a bit more like Bondi Junction (which is already quite Hong Kong-esque in a way). Another alternative to raise money is maybe they could have a surcharge for "beach days" like hot days and weekends during summer, residents with Opal cards registered to a Bondi Beach address can be exempted from the surcharge.

Also, I find it amusing that they considered extending the existing light rail to Bondi Beach. Wouldn't it be too much especially with the Green Square light rail?
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:00 pm

rogf24 wrote:
Wouldn't it be too much especially with the Green Square light rail?

Has such a thing ever been confirmed?
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Frosty » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:08 pm

I doubt Green Square Light Rail would happen anyways Sydney Metro is running via Waterloo now. Could always add more buses in Green Square area . Like the 343 only runs every 3 mins in the peak same can be said for 301/303 also move to bendy buses and some bus priority.

The only way I can see Bondi light rail it would have to mixed street running more less similar to many lines in Melbourne. THe cheapest solution would be implement a bus lane and some bus priority from Bondi Beach to Bondi Jn and have fleet of fully low floor buses running limited stops with mostly standing room.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby rogf24 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:24 pm

The Green Square light rail will serve a slightly different market to the Waterloo metro (Lachlan Precinct). Nothing confirmed in terms of the light rail but it hasn't been ruled out yet either so it's something to keep in mind.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:59 pm

tonyp wrote:
simonl wrote:The obvious answer is to put in a bus lane and ramp up limited stop buses.

Well read what the report says about all this and see what you think.

It never ceases to amaze me that to allow left turners in the bus lane we also need to allow taxis, hire cars, motorbikes and bicycles. Still, I think what I said is the most likely improvement and light rail is described as being unviable under the current rules. Change the rules? Well, maybe. The report didn't appear to go into that.

So the report is saying that the best idea is to extend the Bondi Junction line to the beach? Don't tell Gladys unless you can come up with a "metro conversion".
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:06 pm

Well she is Premier now. I still believe that is was not her who was pushing the Metro idea which came from someone above her. So you never know.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:31 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:I still believe that is was not her who was pushing the Metro idea which came from someone above her.

Sorry for going off topic, but this idea intrigues me. It seemed like she was convinced of the merit by the metro faction in the department, what are you thinking of? I can only gather Mike Baird as treasurer and later Premier. Unless you mean Duncan Gay as a more senior minister.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:40 pm

No I am referring to then premier O"Farrell. This is not the first time I have inferred this.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:45 pm

And then they thought it would cost too much political capital to change courses? Hmm...

EDIT: Still have no idea what gives you that idea?
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:02 pm

O'Farrell made it very obvious in some statements he made that it would only get his approval if it was a Metro. Unfortunately links are no longer available.

And I dont think Baird wanted to change course after O'Farrell was gone as you say.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Frosty » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:16 pm

Converting the ESR to metro doesn't make any sense particularly south of Hurstville unless you plan to have SCO trains run as shuttle to Waterfall. The only issue of maybe the ESR is its full and you always have to wait outside BJ in the peak hour due to congestion. Maybe an extension to Bondi Beach then to Dover Heights/Rose Bay.

@simonl are you saying it be a bus only lane if thats the case simply change the signs.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby mandonov » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:20 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:
rogf24 wrote:
Wouldn't it be too much especially with the Green Square light rail?

Has such a thing ever been confirmed?

An interesting thing that I found on the last page of this document is what they consider priority intersections for passive provision on the CSELR:
http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/sit ... t-Rail.pdf

Future connections

• Future connections are subject to TfNSW Long Term Transport Masterplan process and none are confirmed

• CSELR must be designed to accommodate “network extensions”:
– Randwick to Coogee
– Kingsford to Malabar
– Circular Quay to Barangaroo

• CSELR must be designed to accommodate “network expansions” to cross the CSELR at grade:
– George Street and Alfred Street
– Devonshire Street and Crown Street
– Eddy Avenue and Pitt Street
– Rawson Place and George Street
– George Street and Liverpool Street
– George Street and Hay Street (North to West)


Of relevance to a Green Square light rail is the at grade crossing of Devonshire Street at Crown Street; Baptist/Crown being a corridor that easily flows on from the City of Sydney's Green Square light rail corridor. And of course, the crossing of George at Liverpool is relevant to any potential Oxford Street light rail too.

Taking it a step further, we can speculate that a Green Square and Oxford Street light rail could meet each other at Crown Street to run into the CBD via Liverpool Street. Seeing as the provision is for a crossing of George Street, the only logical place to go after that is north to Barangaroo via Kent and/or Sussex.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:O'Farrell made it very obvious in some statements he made that it would only get his approval if it was a Metro. Unfortunately links are no longer available.

And I dont think Baird wanted to change course after O'Farrell was gone as you say.

Hmm, googling shows this: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/doubledecker- ... 35dau.html

I don't remember this. I don't believe Baird understood the limitations of the plan. I can remember a comment in the election campaign that the Western Line was benefited by the metro. I think it was on the TV and I can't find a link.

Sorry for the off topic. I'll leave it at that.

Frosty wrote:@simonl are you saying it be a bus only lane if thats the case simply change the signs.

No, that is not sufficient. There needs to be another phase in traffic light cycles to allow left turns from lane two under our current road rules. Unless of course you have "end bus only lane/left turn only, buses excepted at intersections and then bus only lane start. Not going to happen!

I think the best move is to say that left turns are permitted only if a lane direction arrow is not provided. That would be very intuitive to what happens anyway. e.g. Elizabeth St Sydney southbound at Liverpool St allows left turners in the bus lane strictly speaking but once they exit the intersection they are breaking the law.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Frosty » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:18 pm

There could be a safety issue with having a phase in traffic light cycles to allow left turns from lane two if a bus is stationary at the lights drivers would not be able to see any pedestrians that could obstruct the vehicles path. Since some wanker will not turn left slowly and do it at speed. Unless you put a physical barrier to prevent pedestrians crossing while left turns occur then it would be safe. Also could just cause more confusion and congestion.

I thought of this maybe lane 1 and 2 be for general traffic. Then have a median strip divider then lane 3 and 4 for buses only and every so often have either little platform stops for customers or bus safety zones similar to Melbourne tram safety zones.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:37 pm

There are quite a number of intersections which already have left turns from lane two because of NSW' stupid rules around bus only lanes. One example, Smith St@Macquarie St northbound Parramatta. Also almost any intersection on the Liverpool-Parramatta T-Way are other examples. The Moore Park bus round at Lang Rd is a virtual example also.

In case it isn't clear, at these intersections a phase in the traffic light cycle is added which is red for buses but green for left turners.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:46 pm

I think there are some "left turn from lane 2" intersections heading into Parramatta along the GWH. How are the lights configured at these?

If there is a specific left turn arrow, the pedestrian light should be at red and pedestrians should not be crossing. Perhaps any visibility concerns could be sorted by having the stop line for buses a few metres back from the corner.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Regarding Bondi, I have read some studies/reports in the past suggesting any rail station should be "inland" from the beach.

Having it around the Glenayr Ave alignment between Six Ways and Seven Ways would still be in comfortable walking distance of the beach, would better serve the current residential zone, and the area between there and Old South Head Rd might be more suitable for development.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby simonl » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:24 pm

If you're thinking of @Pitt St eastbound that is lane one and two turning left in spite of the lack of a turn arrow in lane one.

EDIT: Correction
Last edited by simonl on Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:13 pm

boronia wrote:Regarding Bondi, I have read some studies/reports in the past suggesting any rail station should be "inland" from the beach.

Having it around the Glenayr Ave alignment between Six Ways and Seven Ways would still be in comfortable walking distance of the beach, would better serve the current residential zone, and the area between there and Old South Head Rd might be more suitable for development.

Wherever the nimbies who opposed the rail extension proposal don't live.

Barry O'Farrell used to have some good digs at Bondi resident Michael Caton, the actor ("The Castle" etc, supposed champion of the Ozzie battler), who was a leader of this well-heeled group that didn't want, well, selfsame Ozzie battlers coming from the western suburbs by train and spilling all over the "refined" environment of Bondi Beach and spoiling it for all the multi-millionaire armchair socialists and chardonnay-sipping hypocrites who live there. :wink:
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Re: Bondi corridor study

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:40 am

Frosty wrote: and some bus priority.



Careful - or RMS will wash your mouth out and send you to stand in the corner wearing the 'dunce' cap - You should know by now that only motor car get priority!
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