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Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:27 pm

ALL-OVER ADVERTISING ON BUSES.
Despite complaints from the public, and a mantra which claims to "put the customer at the centre of everything we do", the NSW government has refused to entertain the idea of all-over advertising without also covering the windows. The tourism / travel industry shows how easily it can be done.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm

NO AIR CONDITIONING ON STATE TRANSIT BUSES
Despite years of complaints, State Transit is still incapable of developing procedures which ensure that the air conditioning is functioning while its buses are in service.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:02 pm

Are those some sort of official announcement or just ATDB posts?

Look at PTA WA buses - actually see-through advertising, quite a difference. That's an organisation that DOES actually place the customer first rather than just saying it.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 pm

Perhaps this is a perceived failure:
NSW trains will struggle with delays and overcrowding by 2019, says audit
http://www.governmentnews.com.au/2017/04/26894/#comment-8280
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:14 am

ROUTE 243 - MOSMAN TO CITY
I'd rather not know STA's limp reasoning as to why the inbound 243 does not stop at Spit Junction's major interchange bus stop, but just drives past.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:21 am

lunchbox wrote:ROUTE 243 - MOSMAN TO CITY
I'd rather not know STA's limp reasoning as to why the inbound 243 does not stop at Spit Junction's major interchange bus stop, but just drives past.

My bet is to reduce congestion at the stop.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat May 13, 2017 12:06 pm

CENTRAL METRO STATION
Will it be the ONLY CBD metro station in the world with access restricted to ONE END of the platforms?
Last edited by lunchbox on Sat May 13, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby mandonov » Sat May 13, 2017 4:02 pm

???

It's not going to be. You'll be able to access via N Concourse or the Central Walk.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby stajourneyman » Mon May 15, 2017 10:44 pm

Today ....15/5/2016 !!
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:02 pm

F6 MOTORWAY
Design is proceeding with strict instructions from the State Government NOT to consider alternative rail options.
See Peter Martin's front page article "Motorway cost to hit $18billion", Sydney Morning Herald, 5.7.17.

"Rail Express", quoting a Transport for NSW memo, says -

"Referring to the F6 extension project, the document also stated that 'No alternative considerations in terms of a rail solution has been considered. This represents a serious and significant shortcoming of the F6 Extension Business Case'.
The document goes on to detail the benefits of public transport options, such as reductions in road congestion, travel times, and the costs of construction.

“In the interests of taxpayers obtaining value for money,” the memo concludes, “it is strongly recommended that for the F6 Extension as well as the WHT [Western Harbour Tunnel] and BL [Beaches Link], further options analysis be conducted incorporating rail and bus solutions.”


WESTERN HARBOUR TUNNEL & "BEACHES LINK" MOTORWAYS

The same government restriction seems to have been applied to these planned motorways. According to the Sydney Morning Herald of 18.7.17 -
"An internal Transport for NSW memo released under the Government Information (Public Access) Act refers to a cabinet directive not to consider public transport alternatives when assessing tollway projects. The memo says the Western Harbour Tunnel and Beaches link was not benchmarked against a public transport alternative".
Last edited by lunchbox on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:56 pm

lunchbox wrote:F6 MOTORWAY
Design is proceeding with strict instructions from the State Government NOT to consider alternative rail options.
See Peter Martin's front page article "Motorway cost to hit $18billion", Sydney Morning Herald, 5.7.17.
(Supporting documentation when I have time to dig down to find it).

It's simply being done to provide another source of traffic to boost the case for Westconnex, not for any sound transport planning reasons.

There's huge agitation on the south coast about the rail if anyone has been following the local press.

Edit: In other breaking news, Constance has agreed to a 12 month trial to run buses between Nowra Bomaderry station and Kiama station to meet 10 daily electric slugs, er trains, that don't have a railcar connection to Nowra. This will mean hourly transport to and from Nowra as opposed to the current 2 hourly.

The first question some down there are asking is what about level access for prams, wheelchairs etc. So obviously they're going to have to be urban buses rather than coaches.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:15 am

They need to be careful what they wish for. If the bus goes well, they might axe the train.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:24 am

neilrex wrote:They need to be careful what they wish for. If the bus goes well, they might axe the train.

The people actually wish for a train. This bus is the idea of the local MP Gareth Ward. In view of the contempt with which the government is treating the northern end of the line, some are deeply suspicious that introducing some buses at the southern end is simply the thin end of a wedge to replace the trains altogether.

Why the Endeavours can't manage an hourly return journey on the arrow-straight and flat line between Bomaderry and Kiama escapes me. I assume it's simply the usual NSW railways bumbling incompetence.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:55 am

tonyp wrote:The people actually wish for a train. This bus is the idea of the local MP Gareth Ward. In view of the contempt with which the government is treating the northern end of the line, some are deeply suspicious that introducing some buses at the southern end is simply the thin end of a wedge to replace the trains altogether.

Why the Endeavours can't manage an hourly return journey on the arrow-straight and flat line between Bomaderry and Kiama escapes me. I assume it's simply the usual NSW railways bumbling incompetence.
It's not the travel time that's the problem it's the timetabled gap between services as they get up to 2 hours of turnaround time between runs at both ends if the turnaround times are cut down then there can be more train services and if they directly connect the Kiama to Bomaderry Endeavour service with the electric train service to or from Sydney then it would be a shorter waiting time at Kiama for a connecting
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:08 pm

Campbelltown busboy wrote:It's not the travel time that's the problem it's the timetabled gap between services as they get up to 2 hours of turnaround time between runs at both ends if the turnaround times are cut down then there can be more train services and if they directly connect the Kiama to Bomaderry Endeavour service with the electric train service to or from Sydney then it would be a shorter waiting time at Kiama for a connecting

The trip is 27 minutes which is on the right side of 30 and could work theoretically if the driver sprints to the other end of the train and takes off again, but there is no contingency allowance there. Yes they certainly do a lot of stuffing around at each end of the trip at present.

Kiama to Bomaderry is 30 km with 2 intermediate stops. A benchmark might be Wellard to Mandurah in Perth which is 33 km with 2 intermediate stops and takes 21 minutes. Even taking into account the south coast dmus having the acceleration of a wounded mule, it does suggest that there is room for sufficient improvement to return a train within an hour rather than having to resort to buses every alternate run. So why (apart from the once-off event of the Manildra train for which a slot can be left) can't it be done?
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:55 pm

^ Because they don't want to. <conspiracy> If you speed up one train, they will face calls to speed up others. They don't want that to happen. </conspiracy>
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Linto63 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:06 pm

While in theory an hourly service is possible with one set, a 3 minute turnaround would mean the service would have to leave Kiama bang on time with no contingency to wait for the connecting service from Sydney, which is often a few minutes late. Another alternative would be to operate with 2 sets, but not sure if there is any spare capacity. Should the Xplorers be replaced at the same time as the XPTs in the early 2020s, some in theory could be converted to Endeavours.

The line has been resignaled and much of it renewed in the past decade, so short of some major realignments, not likely there is much here to be done to the infrastructure that will result in any meaningful increase in line speeds. One would expect that a service on a relatively flat line built in Perth in the 21st century operated by EMUs would be far superior to a 19th century built one that traverses more challenging terrain and is operated by DMUs. The rail service is probably safe as long as the Manildra freights continue, but if these were to cease, the line's viability would likely be questioned.

Would expect it to be operated by urban buses, that is what Premier usually use on the route during trackwork.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:21 pm

Actually, alternating buses and trains seems like not a bad idea. The bus could have a few extra stops, and could also go to Nowra.

If people want to be fussy, they can choose one service or the other and wait an hour, up to them. Or plan their trip better. And if they are not fussy, they can go on either service, right away.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:26 am

A few points. There is no challenging terrain on this section of line, it's basically flat with long straight sections, probably straighter than the Mandurah line in Perth and the (potential) maximum speed of the Endeavours is probably the same as or close to that of the Perth emus.

Second, there are no other places for a bus to serve along the way, just Gerringong and Berry. Furthermore, the bus will be slower than the train, even compared with the train's existing asthmatic rate of progress, and the bus cannot provide both accessibility and comfort, it's one or the other.

Third, the previous posters' comments don't recognise the urban and thus population growth in the Shoalhaven region as part of the outer edge of the Sydney conurbation. This will only continue.

Finally, while I wouldn't expect the Endeavours to match the 20-21 minute performance of the Perth trains, the latter's performance suggests that the Endeavours could do a lot better than the existing 27 minutes.

There is a genuine concern that this government is setting about undermining and ultimately destroying the south coast rail and replacing it with motorway-based buses and this is a toe in the water tester. Patronage has been declining for years and at the present rate will diminish until the residue fits on buses. The reason for the loss of patronage is basically the slowness of the journey, something that completion of motorway right along the corridor will walk over.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:57 pm

tonyp wrote:A few points. There is no challenging terrain on this section of line, it's basically flat with long straight sections, probably straighter than the Mandurah line in Perth and the (potential) maximum speed of the Endeavours is probably the same as or close to that of the Perth emus.

Second, there are no other places for a bus to serve along the way, just Gerringong and Berry. Furthermore, the bus will be slower than the train, even compared with the train's existing asthmatic rate of progress, and the bus cannot provide both accessibility and comfort, it's one or the other.

Third, the previous posters' comments don't recognise the urban and thus population growth in the Shoalhaven region as part of the outer edge of the Sydney conurbation. This will only continue.

Finally, while I wouldn't expect the Endeavours to match the 20-21 minute performance of the Perth trains, the latter's performance suggests that the Endeavours could do a lot better than the existing 27 minutes.

There is a genuine concern that this government is setting about undermining and ultimately destroying the south coast rail and replacing it with motorway-based buses and this is a toe in the water tester. Patronage has been declining for years and at the present rate will diminish until the residue fits on buses. The reason for the loss of patronage is basically the slowness of the journey, something that completion of motorway right along the corridor will walk over.
The Kiama to Bomaderry service could run down then have a 3 minute turnaround between runs then run back up to Kiama where it gets another 3 minute turnaround before running down again
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:29 pm

As Linto63 wrote, you'd want a bit more than 3 minute layover. Otherwise it would only take one late train from Sydmey for the whole timetable to fall apart. The Endeavour set needs a bit more tiger in its tank but it's run like browns cows.

Coincidentally I had a very fast ride out on the Armadale line in Perth yesterday. This line was opened in 1893, the same year as the Nowra line, hardly a 21st century line. The fact is that public transport operation in NSW has declined into a pit of hopelessness from which it shows no signs of emerging any time soon.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Linto63 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:53 pm

The Armadale line is a commuter line that was presumably upgraded when electrified in the 90s. The Bomaderry line is a country branch line that is probably almost unchanged in alignment since it opened. The former has 25,000 passenger journeys a day, the latter would only have a fraction of that.

The section between Kiama and Omega where the line passes close to the coast twists a bit, beyond that the line is relatively straight, certainly more so than the parallel Princes Highway. While it's a long way from the halcyon days of the South Coast Daylight Express, at least there still is a service. Without the Manildra plant the line south of Kiama may have closed during the purge of the early 90s.

Assuming a journey time of 27 minutes, an Endeavour covers the 34km between Kiama and Bomaderry with 2 stops at an average of 75km/h. The quickest non-stop Australind is scheduled to take 26 minutes to cover the 30km between Perth and Armadale, an average of 70km/h. http://www.transwa.wa.gov.au/Portals/0/ ... 140537-697 Granted there are probably other factors like the need to fit in with Transperth services and possibly a bit of dwell time, but it is hardly showing the NSW service a clean pair of heels. :mrgreen:
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:50 pm

The Armadale line doesn't seem to have been realigned since it was built. The Australind probably isn't a good example because it has to be slotted in between stopping Thornlie and Armadale services at 7 minute intervals, so it doesn't get to let rip. You can see this reflected in the different journey times in that timetable. The Endeavour on the other hand has nothing between Kiama and the buffers at Bomaderry except fresh air and the odd Manildra.

Even the typical Armadale suburban service covers the line in 35 minutes with 12 intermediate stops, only 7 minutes longer than the Kiama Bomaderry train with 2 stops. Nothing can excuse the latter's lack of performance.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Linto63 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:16 pm

For a robust hourly service to be operated, journey times would need to be no longer than 20 minutes or an average of 105km/h, factoring in the two stops and the lack of opportunity to do much in the Omega tunnels region would require a top speed of probably 120-130 km/h. Whilst this is within the capabilities of the Endeavours, it may require a significant upgrade to the infrastructure.

Presumably the 'can we sweat the assets?' option was examined before it was decided to go with the bus supplement option.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:19 am

Linto63 wrote:For a robust hourly service to be operated, journey times would need to be no longer than 20 minutes or an average of 105km/h, factoring in the two stops and the lack of opportunity to do much in the Omega tunnels region would require a top speed of probably 120-130 km/h. Whilst this is within the capabilities of the Endeavours, it may require a significant upgrade to the infrastructure.

Presumably the 'can we sweat the assets?' option was examined before it was decided to go with the bus supplement option.

Now that I'm back home I can check the driver's knowledge diagrams I have for the south coast and I see that the Kiama-Bomaderry section generally has limits set at 100-140 (the latter is XPT which the Endeavour should be able to match). Only Omega tunnels 2 and 3 have any particular slowdown. However, compared to Perth, there is incredible micromanagement of speed limits on the NSW lines - they just speed up and slow down all the time in a way that's not explained by changes in track profile. I suspect then that there are more institutional than engineering obstacles to any lift in performance.

In addition, the issue mentioned by simonl would come into play - if there is one section of line where the trains belt along at an average of over 100 km/h, then there's a slowdown to the present average of 55 km/h on the next very similar (and furthermore, electric) section, the public will be asking some politically inconvenient questions!

A small correction - the Perth Armadale line was opened in 1889; Armadale station was opened in 1893. Even this old line in Perth, which has a few kinks and wobbles in its alignment and fairly close-spaced stations, highlights how appalling NSW urban/interurban train performance is. The Armadale line typically operates with all-stoppers on the inner section to Cannington/Thornlie, with Armadale trains semi-express over this section and then all stops to Armadale (30 km from Perth). Trains operating in this pattern take 35 minutes to get to Armadale with 12 intermediate stops. In the small hours, trains to Armadale are stopping at all stations and take 39 minutes with 17 intermediate stops.

A similar equivalent in Sydney might be, for example, the East Hills line from Central to Glenfield (33 km). The typical trains that express from Wolli Creek to Riverwood take 43 minutes with 11 intermediate stops. The late night trains that stop at all 17 intermediate stops (Central to Glenfield) take 49 minutes, a full 10 minutes longer than an equivalent train on the Armadale line. This is an appalling discrepancy considering the Sydney line is a mostly newish/rebuilt line with a long quad section as well. If this isn't an example of how completely buggered NSW train operations are, I don't know what is. This is more than a failure in NSW transport policy, it's a failure in NSW transport everything.

I await the defenders of our lumbering double deckers reminding us how all those extra seats (those figures being somewhat undermined by the greater frequency of the Armadale trains providing potentially more seats per hour) are a good thing because the journeys are so slow you wouldn't want to be standing up.
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