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Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:36 pm

boronia wrote:IF they had an hourly service KIA - BOM, wouldn't one service be back into Kiama before the next one arrived, so the cross would be at Kiama. The up service could wait at Kiama and depart at the current times.


Talking hypothetical electrification here, if you did nothing else to the off-peak train pattern you would get this:

Kiama 13:37
Gerringong 13:46 X
Berry 13:55
Bomaderry 14:04

Bomaderry 14:28
Berry 14:37
Gerringong 14:46 X
Kiama 14:55

You'll see the cross would be at Gerringong and the turnaround at Bomaderry would be 6 minutes longer than the turnaround currently is at Kiama, per earlier message.

boronia wrote:Actually I should have made it clear that I was anticipating the same 2 hour frequency for KIA-BOM as now, so only every second train would go through. This would leave paths for Manildra trains.


I certainly wouldn't electrify for a 2 hourly service!
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:48 am

Glen wrote:I certainly wouldn't electrify for a 2 hourly service!

The demand for an hourly service is already there. The population of Shoalhaven is 100,000 and steadily growing. It's not only on the outer edge of the Sydney conurbation but in the commuter area for the large city of Wollongong too. The main problem is that the train journey to both Sydney and Wollongong is so slow and at the same time the government is merrily completing the M1 motorway all the way from Nowra to Sydney which means the train has an unequal struggle to compete.

The issues on the railway can be looked at in three sections:

1. There is the ongoing debate about straightening the section between Waterfall and Coledale. That's a difficult one to solve, both politically and engineering/cost-wise.
2. The section from Thirroul to Kiama which is actually pretty straight and grade-free, yet, like the Kiama-Bomaderry section, is operated oh-so-slowly.
3. The section from Kiama to Bomaderry which should be electrified so that there's a continuous run but, either way, is also pretty straight and level and should be operated much faster and without a transfer delay at Kiama pending through-running on electrification.

Thirroul to Kiama is 50 km and typically takes 51-55 minutes with 10 intermediate stops. If I combine the Joondalup and Mandurah lines in Perth to grab an equivalent 50 km that goes through the Perth CBD stations to emulate passing through central Wollongong (except that in Wollongong it's straight whereas in Perth the line curves about heavily through the CBD), I'll select Stirling to Rockingham with 11 intermediate stops which is covered in 44 minutes. This suggests that with some operational upgrades (but no need for track realignment), it's quite possible to shave up to 10 minutes off Thirroul-Kiama which, combined with any saving on the Kiama-Bomaderry section, would actually make a Bomaderry-Wollongong or Kiama-Wollongong trip competitive with driving time on the motorway.

Wollongong has become like Perth in that nowadays parking anywhere in the central area costs and there are free shuttle buses connecting the stations and distributing through downtown areas, those buses in both cities being very successful and heavily used. The trains just need speeding up to capitalise on this. As a side-benefit, any gains in the Thorroul-Bomaderry section would also shorten the journey time to Sydney even without addressing the Waterfall-Coledale problem. The Nowra-Sydney journey could be knocked down to 2:30 hr rather than the present 2:45 +hr. This would in turn attract more patronage from south of Kiama which would then justify electrification.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:54 am

As we have discussed before, much of the slow running is because, they deliberately run the trains slowly! (and so far no Minister, Premier or Chief Executive from The Tube has been able to stop 'them').

I always remember the approach taken when V/Line introduced the Tangerine Trains in the 1980's.

They sped the trains up by ...... wait for it .... running them faster!
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:14 am

Beaches Link, F6 motorways.....
Peter Martin exposes the fake economics of these proposed motorways in the Sydney Morning Herald of 23 November 2017.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:08 am

lunchbox wrote:Beaches Link, F6 motorways.....
Peter Martin exposes the fake economics of these proposed motorways in the Sydney Morning Herald of 23 November 2017.

I've opened the SMH website and there is no story like that today.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:46 pm

Page 25 of the print version.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby gascoyne » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:18 am

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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby gascoyne » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm

A large failure which doesn't seem to be listed above in this thread is designing Barangaroo without credible transport. The feasibility of putting a metro station there wasn't known until perhaps 2014. But by then construction was well under way and I think some of the tenants of the three round towers were moving in. The plan was to have about 15000 workers there by perhaps 2016 (which is approximately what happened) and 23000 by 2018. Wynyard was fast running out of options, ferries plainly weren't going to make much of an impact, cars were absolutely unsuitable yet the Carr/Iemma/Rees/Kenneally government let Barangaroo go ahead without a railway station.

Feel free to refine the names and dates above but the substance remains.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Transtopic » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:16 pm

gascoyne wrote:A large failure which doesn't seem to be listed above in this thread is designing Barangaroo without credible transport. The feasibility of putting a metro station there wasn't known until perhaps 2014. But by then construction was well under way and I think some of the tenants of the three round towers were moving in. The plan was to have about 15000 workers there by perhaps 2016 (which is approximately what happened) and 23000 by 2018. Wynyard was fast running out of options, ferries plainly weren't going to make much of an impact, cars were absolutely unsuitable yet the Carr/Iemma/Rees/Kenneally government let Barangaroo go ahead without a railway station.

Feel free to refine the names and dates above but the substance remains.

Although belatedly a metro station at Barangaroo is welcome, I think that a further failure is not to allow for a possible future extension of the Sydney Trains network as part of the City Relief Line to interchange with the metro, preferably with cross platform transfer.

This would allow T1 Western Line services terminating at Central to continue into the northern CBD, providing access to both Town Hall and Wynyard as well as reducing the inevitable interchange congestion to Sydney Trains or the metro at Central. It would also provide more convenient interchange between Sydney Trains and the metro via cross platform transfer at Barangaroo, which won't be possible at Central.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:29 pm

On wayfinding.....
See "New Way-finding signs" entry dated Mon. Jul 02, 2018 in "Discussion - Sydney / NSW" thread.
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