• Advertisement

Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:27 am

Would there be the demand for a direct train service between Bomaderry and Central and the Marcarthur services should not have to stop between Wolli Creek and Revsby Padstow and Riverwood can be solely served by the local Revsby all stoppers by doing that the Revsby all stop services can terminate on platform 3 go up the line abit and then move onto platform 2 to start the next service as all Macarthur bound services would depart from platform 4
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
 
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 40 times
Favourite Vehicle: Volvo B10M MK4 AD Metroliner

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:54 am

tonyp wrote:
Second, there are no other places for a bus to serve along the way, just Gerringong and Berry.


Well I disagree. Nowra is an obvious place for a bus to go. In addition, you could have a couple of stops along the Princes Highways towards the west side of Bomaderry, which is beyond convenient walking distance from the station.

There are plenty of residents at the west end of Berry who could use a bus stop, including residents of the large retirement village who have no direct pedestrian access towards the railway station.

Gerringong and Werri are probably long enough to have 2 bus stops.

And the precincts of Kiama near Attunga Avenue and Marks St are a long way from the station too.

Jasper's brush used to have a station. There are several substantial hospitality establishments there, where some of the poor unemployed people of Nowra might be able to look for a job which they would currently be precluded from doing if they don't own a car.
Liamena
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:12 pm
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:42 pm

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Would there be the demand for a direct train service between Bomaderry and Central

It has certainly been demanded but knocked firmly on the head by the government, probably because NSW Trains has its hands full managing even the present level of service without introducing express trains into the mix. Also there aren't enough DMUs (Endeavour or Xplorer) in the state to allocate to such a job.

Campbelltown busboy wrote: and the Marcarthur services should not have to stop between Wolli Creek and Revsby Padstow and Riverwood can be solely served by the local Revsby all stoppers

Why sacrifice stops, if Perth can do it 10 minutes faster with the same number of stops then surely so can Sydney? That's the $64 question isn't it?
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:03 pm

Liamena wrote:Well I disagree. Nowra is an obvious place for a bus to go. In addition, you could have a couple of stops along the Princes Highways towards the west side of Bomaderry, which is beyond convenient walking distance from the station.

There are plenty of residents at the west end of Berry who could use a bus stop, including residents of the large retirement village who have no direct pedestrian access towards the railway station.

Gerringong and Werri are probably long enough to have 2 bus stops.

And the precincts of Kiama near Attunga Avenue and Marks St are a long way from the station too.

Jasper's brush used to have a station. There are several substantial hospitality establishments there, where some of the poor unemployed people of Nowra might be able to look for a job which they would currently be precluded from doing if they don't own a car.

You're correct up to a point. There probably isn't that much harm in the bus stopping a few more times on demand. However, the bus is already going to take up to 10 minutes longer than the train (and 20 minutes longer than the high-speed proposal mentioned above). If you add all of the extras you suggest, you're pushing the journey to be even longer.

The problem at the Nowra end is that, in order to meet exact hourly trains at Kiama, they can't leave (or return to) Bomaderry at even intervals between the trains. For example, the departure pattern from Bomaderry will be something like: 0:00 train, 0:50 bus, 2:00 train, 2:50 bus, 4:00 train etc etc rather than even hourly departures and arrivals. If you introduce more stops for the bus, it's going to skew the uneven headways even further.

Access to the Bupa retirement village at Berry is now cut off by the new bypass. I would think the buses should simply stop at the highway bus stop in Berry rather than go over to the station. At Gerringong they could go past the station, through town via Belinda and Fern Sts and rejoin the highway at the new Omega ramps. At Kiama they enter town at Kiama Heights. At any of these towns and through Bomaderry I would say there is no big deal about having request stops within the towns. However, it will all add up to an argument for the government to replace the trains with buses in the face of continuing population growth. Which all adds up to a gold plated case for driving and the motorway.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:29 pm

Trains operating in this pattern take 35 minutes to get to Armadale with 12 intermediate stops. In the small hours, trains to Armadale are stopping at all stations and take 39 minutes with 17 intermediate stops.

I've been digging around trying to find a relatively"successful" NSW urban train operation to challenge even Perth's Armidale legacy line. Leaving Perth with the handicap of a relatively slow exit from Perth station past the first couple of stations before it crosses the Swan River and speeds up, I went instinctively to Sydney's "racetrack" western line over an identical 30 km between Westmead and Penrith, without any similar handicap.

Picking some typical stopping trains, I get 38 minutes Westmead-Penrith with 11 intermediate stops. Going back to 1984 in Sydney's best (albeit unreliable) years before the "slowdown", I find 37 minutes Penrith-Westmead, with 11 stops. NSW just can't seem to manage it, even with obvious handicaps removed. Were the old Sydney single deckers better? I go back to the 1968 timetable and find that a stopping train takes 40 minutes with 11 stops.

How does the Sydney metro sit with this? Bankstown to Chatswood is 30 km with 17 intermediate stops and it's projected to be 43 minutes, no doubt due to some short stop spacings and twists and turns. Not as good as Armadale but signifcantly better than the Central-Glenfield run with the same number of stops. It seems that the metro is a good decision and promises to lift Sydney's game closer to, but not quite up to Perth standards, but the suburban system seems to be permanently lost to mediocrity.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:28 am

In the PM peak the Kiama - Bomaderry Endeavour achieves an approx. 62 minute frequency with 5 consecutive trips in a row from 15:41 to 19:52, then has a break to recover before its next trip.

I don't know why they don't do that sort of pattern in the morning and on weekends.

Tighter turnarounds could be achieved by using two drivers in a relay fashion, instead of a driver and guard.
Glen
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:58 am

Glen wrote:In the PM peak the Kiama - Bomaderry Endeavour achieves an approx. 62 minute frequency with 5 consecutive trips in a row from 15:41 to 19:52, then has a break to recover before its next trip.

I don't know why they don't do that sort of pattern in the morning and on weekends.

Tighter turnarounds could be achieved by using two drivers in a relay fashion, instead of a driver and guard.

On a two-car train, relay drivers don't achieve any benefit. The driver can easily change from one end to the other and be ready to go in the time the trains takes to unload and load.

You're correct that those periods of the day when the service lifts its performance show that it can do better at other times too.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:11 am

tonyp wrote: However, it will all add up to an argument for the government to replace the trains with buses in the face of continuing population growth. Which all adds up to a gold plated case for driving and the motorway.


Not everyone simply has the option of driving.

With the rapidly increasing number of people over 90 years old, the issue of cancelling people's licenses is going to create more and more political aggro.
Liamena
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:12 pm
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:36 am

tonyp wrote: However, it will all add up to an argument for the government to replace the trains with buses in the face of continuing population growth. Which all adds up to a gold plated case for driving and the motorway.

I think you are drawing a long bow there ....... but then, I wouldn't put anything past them.

tonyp wrote:
Glen wrote:Tighter turnarounds could be achieved by using two drivers in a relay fashion, instead of a driver and guard.

On a two-car train, relay drivers don't achieve any benefit. The driver can easily change from one end to the other and be ready to go in the time the trains takes to unload and load.

Fair point, but when turnaround times are tight, I'd still do it.

It's still a 2 person crew, just both being drivers.
Glen
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:10 am

Liamena wrote:Not everyone simply has the option of driving.

With the rapidly increasing number of people over 90 years old, the issue of cancelling people's licenses is going to create more and more political aggro.

Motorways carry buses - which cater for the 90 year olds!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:00 pm

If the line was electrified from Kiama to Bombaderry and EMUs run right through, would the time saved from eliminating transfers at Kiama allow a 60 min turnaround KIA-BOM-KIA to maintain a regular hourly service?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16944
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 1523 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:58 pm

boronia wrote:If the line was electrified from Kiama to Bombaderry and EMUs run right through, would the time saved from eliminating transfers at Kiama allow a 60 min turnaround KIA-BOM-KIA to maintain a regular hourly service?

Yes it would.

On paper, the turnaround time at Bomaderry would be 6 minutes longer than the electric's currently have at Kiama, i.e. for each hour worked by a through train south of Kiama, 54 minutes is running time (2 x 27) + an extra 6 minutes layover on top of current Kiama allowance.

However the problem then becomes where they'd cross!

On a typical current off-peak layover at Kiama of arrive 37 / depart 55, the logical place to cross would be Gerringong.

However it might need a rethink of the timetable, especially to get rid of that messy alternating jumble on weekends.

For my money though, it's a long way to electrify, so I'd just run the diesel better.
Glen
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:04 pm

Glen wrote:Yes it would.

On paper, the turnaround time at Bomaderry would be 6 minutes longer than the electric's currently have at Kiama, i.e. for each hour worked by a through train south of Kiama, 54 minutes is running time (2 x 27) + an extra 6 minutes layover on top of current Kiama allowance.

However the problem then becomes where they'd cross!

On a typical current off-peak layover at Kiama of arrive 37 / depart 55, the logical place to cross would be Gerringong.

However it might need a rethink of the timetable, especially to get rid of that messy alternating jumble on weekends.

For my money though, it's a long way to electrify, so I'd just run the diesel better.

The main obstacle to electrification is that Manildra doesn't want their daily train interrupted. I believe that when they lowered the track in the Kiama tunnel they had to relay it every day for the Manildra train. Multiply that by four for the Omega tunnels. There are no crossing loops on the line at present. The major problem with splitting the service is the major transfer delay at Kiama, sometimes up to 15 minutes.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:08 pm

Do I post this directly under "failures" in predictable anticipation?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/n ... 5438a69112

If by some fluke it's a success it can be transferred to another thread. :lol:
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:13 pm

tonyp wrote:The main obstacle to electrification is that Manildra doesn't want their daily train interrupted. I believe that when they lowered the track in the Kiama tunnel they had to relay it every day for the Manildra train. Multiply that by four for the Omega tunnels. There are no crossing loops on the line at present. The major problem with splitting the service is the major transfer delay at Kiama, sometimes up to 15 minutes.

I thought there was an hourly service to Manildra.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 19538
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 941 times
Been thanked: 998 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:46 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:I thought there was an hourly service to Manildra.

Manildra the company at Bomaderry, not Manildra, northern NSW.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:03 pm

Thanks for explaining - other than locals no one would know. And Manildra is in Western NSW between Orange and Parkes and not Northern NSW.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 19538
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 941 times
Been thanked: 998 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:20 pm

Glen wrote:
boronia wrote:If the line was electrified from Kiama to Bombaderry and EMUs run right through, would the time saved from eliminating transfers at Kiama allow a 60 min turnaround KIA-BOM-KIA to maintain a regular hourly service?

Yes it would.

On paper, the turnaround time at Bomaderry would be 6 minutes longer than the electric's currently have at Kiama, i.e. for each hour worked by a through train south of Kiama, 54 minutes is running time (2 x 27) + an extra 6 minutes layover on top of current Kiama allowance.

However the problem then becomes where they'd cross!

On a typical current off-peak layover at Kiama of arrive 37 / depart 55, the logical place to cross would be Gerringong.

However it might need a rethink of the timetable, especially to get rid of that messy alternating jumble on weekends.

For my money though, it's a long way to electrify, so I'd just run the diesel better.


IF they had an hourly service KIA - BOM, wouldn't one service be back into Kiama before the next one arrived, so the cross would be at Kiama. The up service could wait at Kiama and depart at the current times.

Actually I should have made it clear that I was anticipating the same 2 hour frequency for KIA-BOM as now, so only every second train would go through. This would leave paths for Manildra trains.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16944
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 1523 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:21 pm

IIRC the Gold Coast Line averages in the mid 80s km/h Beenleigh to Robina with stops about every 8km. The South Coast line Kiama-Bombaderry has less stops than this.

FWIW.
simonl
 
Posts: 7876
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 834 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:29 pm

simonl wrote:IIRC the Gold Coast Line averages in the mid 80s km/h Beenleigh to Robina with stops about every 8km. The South Coast line Kiama-Bombaderry has less stops than this.

FWIW.

The Mandurah line is faster than Gold Coast. I've given the times in an earlier post, but in summary on the Perth times the train should get between Bomaderry and Kiama in about 20 minutes.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6575
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 699 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby jpp42 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:27 pm

Why is the Kiama cross platform transfer scheduled for so long? It should only take about 15 seconds for people to transfer to a waiting train, maybe allow 60 seconds total in case of those who are less mobile.

In other parts of the network, transfers don't work well due to incompetence in timetables (Epping), poor communication (people don't realize that you should transfer from Up Southern Highlands services at Macarthur, not Campbelltown), poor infrastructure (Clyde - no lifts), and fundamental design problems (main west prior to westmead: local and Express tracks should be parallel in the same direction, not in pairs). But in Kiama's case there's simply no excuses - the Bombaderry trains have nothing in their way and no reason to run late! And there's so much slack in the schedule that even if the down electric train runs late, the DMU can wait. It's just idiotic that everyone is made to wait 8-10 minutes for no reason at all.
User avatar
jpp42
 
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 241 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:05 pm

The cross platform transfer at Kiama usually involves waiting for the connection to actually arrive.

eg weekday, train from Sydney arrives Kiama 11:39, connection to Bombadery arrives Kiama 11:50, departs 12:00; train back to Sydney departs 11:55.

Definitely very unbalanced in terms of connection waiting times.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16944
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 1523 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Linto63 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:13 pm

tonyp wrote:...train should get between Bomaderry and Kiama in about 20 minutes.
To cover the 34km in 20 minutes would require an average speed of 102 km/h. Assuming an average speed of 60km/h for 1km either side of the 2 stops (including stopping time), that means 30km would need be covered in 16 minutes at 112km/h.

On the 20km Kiama to Berry section >100km/h running is only permitted on about 5km; a 2 kilometre section south from Omega at 125 km/h, but this includes the Gerringong stop so even if this speed were reached, would only be briefly and a 3 kilometre section a bit further on that is signposted for 140km/h. These are partially offset by a 45km/h section between 2 of the Omega tunnels and an 80km/h approach to Berry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIiWoyC6pyI
Linto63
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:44 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:29 pm

jpp42 wrote:Why is the Kiama cross platform transfer scheduled for so long?

Generally because, on weekdays at least, the diesel turnaround has to dovetail into the electric turnaround time.

That is, the electric typically sits at Kiama about 18 minutes and the diesel has a minimum turnaround time of 4 minutes, so ideally the diesel would arrive 2 minutes prior to the mid point between the electric arrival and departure, then the diesel would depart 2 minutes after the mid point between the electric arrival and departure.

For example:
electric arrives 13:37
diesel arrives 13:44 ... (11 minute transfer)

diesel departs 13:48 ... (11 minute transfer)
electric departs 13:55

I'm talking theory here. In practice they don't quite follow that principle as they tend to favour the peak direction of loading and make other exceptions, but that is the best they can do with the rules they have set.
Last edited by Glen on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Glen
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:35 pm

The connection needs to work for people travelling in both directions.
Liamena
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:12 pm
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 30 times

PreviousNext


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], iamthouth, jaseee, Swift and 14 guests