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Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:36 pm

boronia wrote:IF they had an hourly service KIA - BOM, wouldn't one service be back into Kiama before the next one arrived, so the cross would be at Kiama. The up service could wait at Kiama and depart at the current times.


Talking hypothetical electrification here, if you did nothing else to the off-peak train pattern you would get this:

Kiama 13:37
Gerringong 13:46 X
Berry 13:55
Bomaderry 14:04

Bomaderry 14:28
Berry 14:37
Gerringong 14:46 X
Kiama 14:55

You'll see the cross would be at Gerringong and the turnaround at Bomaderry would be 6 minutes longer than the turnaround currently is at Kiama, per earlier message.

boronia wrote:Actually I should have made it clear that I was anticipating the same 2 hour frequency for KIA-BOM as now, so only every second train would go through. This would leave paths for Manildra trains.


I certainly wouldn't electrify for a 2 hourly service!
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:48 am

Glen wrote:I certainly wouldn't electrify for a 2 hourly service!

The demand for an hourly service is already there. The population of Shoalhaven is 100,000 and steadily growing. It's not only on the outer edge of the Sydney conurbation but in the commuter area for the large city of Wollongong too. The main problem is that the train journey to both Sydney and Wollongong is so slow and at the same time the government is merrily completing the M1 motorway all the way from Nowra to Sydney which means the train has an unequal struggle to compete.

The issues on the railway can be looked at in three sections:

1. There is the ongoing debate about straightening the section between Waterfall and Coledale. That's a difficult one to solve, both politically and engineering/cost-wise.
2. The section from Thirroul to Kiama which is actually pretty straight and grade-free, yet, like the Kiama-Bomaderry section, is operated oh-so-slowly.
3. The section from Kiama to Bomaderry which should be electrified so that there's a continuous run but, either way, is also pretty straight and level and should be operated much faster and without a transfer delay at Kiama pending through-running on electrification.

Thirroul to Kiama is 50 km and typically takes 51-55 minutes with 10 intermediate stops. If I combine the Joondalup and Mandurah lines in Perth to grab an equivalent 50 km that goes through the Perth CBD stations to emulate passing through central Wollongong (except that in Wollongong it's straight whereas in Perth the line curves about heavily through the CBD), I'll select Stirling to Rockingham with 11 intermediate stops which is covered in 44 minutes. This suggests that with some operational upgrades (but no need for track realignment), it's quite possible to shave up to 10 minutes off Thirroul-Kiama which, combined with any saving on the Kiama-Bomaderry section, would actually make a Bomaderry-Wollongong or Kiama-Wollongong trip competitive with driving time on the motorway.

Wollongong has become like Perth in that nowadays parking anywhere in the central area costs and there are free shuttle buses connecting the stations and distributing through downtown areas, those buses in both cities being very successful and heavily used. The trains just need speeding up to capitalise on this. As a side-benefit, any gains in the Thorroul-Bomaderry section would also shorten the journey time to Sydney even without addressing the Waterfall-Coledale problem. The Nowra-Sydney journey could be knocked down to 2:30 hr rather than the present 2:45 +hr. This would in turn attract more patronage from south of Kiama which would then justify electrification.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:54 am

As we have discussed before, much of the slow running is because, they deliberately run the trains slowly! (and so far no Minister, Premier or Chief Executive from The Tube has been able to stop 'them').

I always remember the approach taken when V/Line introduced the Tangerine Trains in the 1980's.

They sped the trains up by ...... wait for it .... running them faster!
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:14 am

Beaches Link, F6 motorways.....
Peter Martin exposes the fake economics of these proposed motorways in the Sydney Morning Herald of 23 November 2017.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:08 am

lunchbox wrote:Beaches Link, F6 motorways.....
Peter Martin exposes the fake economics of these proposed motorways in the Sydney Morning Herald of 23 November 2017.

I've opened the SMH website and there is no story like that today.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:46 pm

Page 25 of the print version.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby gascoyne » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:18 am

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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby gascoyne » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm

A large failure which doesn't seem to be listed above in this thread is designing Barangaroo without credible transport. The feasibility of putting a metro station there wasn't known until perhaps 2014. But by then construction was well under way and I think some of the tenants of the three round towers were moving in. The plan was to have about 15000 workers there by perhaps 2016 (which is approximately what happened) and 23000 by 2018. Wynyard was fast running out of options, ferries plainly weren't going to make much of an impact, cars were absolutely unsuitable yet the Carr/Iemma/Rees/Kenneally government let Barangaroo go ahead without a railway station.

Feel free to refine the names and dates above but the substance remains.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Transtopic » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:16 pm

gascoyne wrote:A large failure which doesn't seem to be listed above in this thread is designing Barangaroo without credible transport. The feasibility of putting a metro station there wasn't known until perhaps 2014. But by then construction was well under way and I think some of the tenants of the three round towers were moving in. The plan was to have about 15000 workers there by perhaps 2016 (which is approximately what happened) and 23000 by 2018. Wynyard was fast running out of options, ferries plainly weren't going to make much of an impact, cars were absolutely unsuitable yet the Carr/Iemma/Rees/Kenneally government let Barangaroo go ahead without a railway station.

Feel free to refine the names and dates above but the substance remains.

Although belatedly a metro station at Barangaroo is welcome, I think that a further failure is not to allow for a possible future extension of the Sydney Trains network as part of the City Relief Line to interchange with the metro, preferably with cross platform transfer.

This would allow T1 Western Line services terminating at Central to continue into the northern CBD, providing access to both Town Hall and Wynyard as well as reducing the inevitable interchange congestion to Sydney Trains or the metro at Central. It would also provide more convenient interchange between Sydney Trains and the metro via cross platform transfer at Barangaroo, which won't be possible at Central.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:29 pm

On wayfinding.....
See "New Way-finding signs" entry dated Mon. Jul 02, 2018 in "Discussion - Sydney / NSW" thread.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:28 pm

URBAN REDEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATED WITH SYDENHAM TO BANKSTOWN METRO.
Sydney Morning herald of 25 october 2018 reports (p5) that "... rezoning proposals have been put on hold, with the state government handing control over land-use changes back to the Inner West and Canterbury Bankstown councils".
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:35 pm

NSW LAGS IN REMOVING PENALTY FOR SWITCHING MODES
Infrastucture Australia's policy and research director, Peter Colacino, is reported as saying NSW lags other states in removing the fare penalty for switching between modes. (Sydney Morning Herald, 26.10.18, p 12)
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:40 pm

WITHDRAWAL OF 131500 TRIP PLANNING PHONE LINE
There is confusion as to whether the 131500 phone line for trip planning and timetable information will be retained after November 2018. (SMH, 26.10.18)
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby stupid_girl » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:35 am

lunchbox wrote:URBAN REDEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATED WITH SYDENHAM TO BANKSTOWN METRO.
Sydney Morning herald of 25 october 2018 reports (p5) that "... rezoning proposals have been put on hold, with the state government handing control over land-use changes back to the Inner West and Canterbury Bankstown councils".

It is extremely unforunate that the Nimby stops the rezoning proposal again. :evil:
More people should live around the metro stations.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:52 am

Canterbury-Bankstown is a nimby council ? Who'd a thought it ?
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby mandonov » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:27 pm

neilrex wrote:Canterbury-Bankstown is a nimby council ? Who'd a thought it ?

Canterbury Bankstown wanted more government involvement (ie. money), and Inner West wanted less (ie. development).
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:17 am

Well here's an example of a failure, although a minor one.

I used to live in Marrickville for a while, and was always annoyed by the extent to which the airport and the Alexandria Canal cut off that area from the Rosebery/Botany/Kingsford area. Although close by, there was a definite vibe of "you can't get there from here".

This occurs in other places too. For example, getting from Turramurra to Macquarie University seems like an epic, whichever way you try to do it. It is 3 km away, you can actually walk there, but that is not the perception. There are many examples, due to waterways, canyons, parks, etcetera.


Here's a map of the south-east of Sydney Bus services. I like this map. I use it quite often, and when I didn't have a car, I used it even more. The early versions of "trip planner" were not very good, or required that you already knew the bus numbers for areas you didn't live in or visit every day.

https://transportnsw.info/document/1699 ... y-east.pdf

Now one thing you will notice on this map, is the poor choices for getting from, say, Marrickville, to anywhere east of the Alexandria Canal. There is the 370, which I don't think existed when I lived there, Not sure, now. Otherwise, 2 trains from Marrickville to Rockdale, and then the 400. Or train all the way downtown and then bus back out again. Lets go by car, instead !

Someone pointed out to me, today, in another thread here, that there is a 418, which runs, pretty directly, from Marrickville to Kingsford. Along Gardeners Road, which is the same way that one would probably drive.

I regard it as a policy fail, that the 418 is not on this map.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:46 am

Admin - No need to quote a previous post in full

And this very clearly outlines a great example of the failure of operator specific maps. I don't want to look at three maps to find my local bus services. There should be regional maps which show all routes in an area, irrespective of operator. Some areas have three or more operators and having to look at several maps just to see the local services is a massive failure of convince from a passenger perspective.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:07 pm

Here's another example of a policy failure.

Didn't the government recently merge Botany and Rockdale councils ? Have you ever tried to get from Rockdale to Botany, other than by car ? It's definitely a case of "you can't get there from here".

I've walk through the General Holmes Drive tunnel three times. It's not something I'd recommend. I've also ridden my bike through it a few times, although at least one of those was on the big ride to Wollongong and there was probably a lane marked off.

Qantas Drive isn't much better, and is a long way around if you are walking.

The 303 bus goes by there, but doesn't stop. If there was a stop near Mill Pond Road, or near Foreshore Road, you would be close enough for most people to be able to walk to Botany. But there are no bus stops there, the nearest bus stops are in Mascot, which is too far to walk from Botany.

And if you worked at the air traffic control, or the airport fire station, or the helicopter repairer, then owning a car is compulsory. Actually, owning two cars is probably compulsory. I know plenty of people whose only exposure to public transport, is the one day of the year they have to leave their car at the dealership for servicing, and still have to get to work somehow.

As the government is keen on active transport ( walking ), as well as encouraging by various policies that inner-suburban households should get by with one car, instead of two cars, then this situation is a failure. Having long stretches of bus routes without any stops along them, is a failure. Inconvenience to the RTA should not be an excuse. Having an employment precinct, which a bus goes right past, but is incapable of stopping there, should not be an excuse either.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby mandonov » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:38 pm

Committee for Sydney has interviewed Jarrett Walker for a podcast on his recent trip to the country: https://www.sydney.org.au/cityscapes-wi ... tt-walker/

Jarrett is a highly regarded transport planner from Portland with a focus on redesigning bus networks. He's recently done work to completely redesign the networks in Auckland and Houston, and is working on Dublin right now. He lived in Sydney about a decade ago, and was part of the Independent Public Inquiry into long term public transport planning commissioned by the SMH at the tail end of the Labor fiasco.

Fascinating listen about our current issues, and I highly recommend reading his material: https://humantransit.org
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby neilrex » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:09 pm

Yeah, a legend in his own mind. I have read his stuff and I am not very impressed. For a start, he seems to have a very low capability to comprehend cities which don't a have a grid pattern of roads. Perhaps he should visit Adelaide.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby rogf24 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:20 pm

https://humantransit.org/2010/03/sydney ... ities.html

I mean Sydney is not Toronto (they have some amazingly frequent buses out in the almost boondocks sprawlsville, 36 Finch West, for example, runs every 5 minutes during the off-peak, none of Sydney's non-interlined routes run that frequently and it has no major destinations apart from the station) but I think Sydney should have a much larger network of non-interlined buses that run at least every 10 minutes. Just because a city isn't gridded doesn't mean we can't learn from cities with grids, we can just create a virtual grid for buses.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby mandonov » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:46 am

neilrex wrote:Yeah, a legend in his own mind. I have read his stuff and I am not very impressed. For a start, he seems to have a very low capability to comprehend cities which don't a have a grid pattern of roads. Perhaps he should visit Adelaide.

What an odd thing to say. His and his firm's work on Auckland's new network resulted in a remarkable jump in patronage: 20% more boardings, 4% more journey's in 4 months. Auckland's topography is similar to Sydney's, with a very loose street grid.
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