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Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:23 pm

A new thread, precipitated by this week's finding by the NSW Auditor-General, that one of the main reasons that the value of Sydney's new light rail line fell by 25% was because trams would not get priority at traffic lights. This thread may become a useful reference if flippant comments can be contained. Top of the list has to be....

WESTCONNEX MOTORWAY......
Criticised by experts and the public alike. Next.....

NO PRIORITY FOR LIGHT RAIL...
As reported in the press of 1.12.16, trams with hundreds of passengers will get no priority at traffic lights over single-occupant cars. It seems RMS still runs roughshod over its supposedly superior authority, Transport for NSW.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:28 pm

How does that "reduce the value" of the light rail line by 25% ?

I agree that the failure to have traffic light priority is pretty poor, but I am not sure what kind of valuation methodology the auditor-general is claiming to be using here.

Also, I did not see this assertion mentioned in any other new sources, looks like I will have to go and read the actual report.

There are the usual cost overruns, which happen with just about any construction project, particularly involving digging up the streets. It should be better managed. But that also has nothing to do with traffic light priority.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Glen » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:48 pm

Liamena wrote:How does that "reduce the value" of the light rail line by 25% ?

I agree that the failure to have traffic light priority is pretty poor, but I am not sure what kind of valuation methodology the auditor-general is claiming to be using here.

In a nutshell, no priority = longer running times and time is money.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:08 pm

FIXED SEATING IN THE "NIF" - (New Intercity Fleet)

We all know that reversible seating replaced fixed seating in 3 previous train types in NSW, at great cost to the taxpayer.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:09 pm

Glen wrote:
Liamena wrote:How does that "reduce the value" of the light rail line by 25% ?

I agree that the failure to have traffic light priority is pretty poor, but I am not sure what kind of valuation methodology the auditor-general is claiming to be using here.

In a nutshell, no priority = longer running times and time is money.

While it would be nice to have non-stop run, 4 or 5 minutes is not going to be a deal killer for anyone, even over this short distance.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:54 am

boronia wrote:While it would be nice to have non-stop run, 4 or 5 minutes is not going to be a deal killer for anyone, even over this short distance.

It will affect everybody forced to transfer from a faster single bus journey to this split journey, especially if they just miss a connection.

It's not like its just a little slowdown, it's around a whopping 15 minutes slower. A tram journey over this distance given the same number of stops and exclusive lanes typically takes about 22-23 minutes. They're talking 38 minutes. Even the notoriously slow IWLR takes no more than 38 minutes over a distance 4.5 km longer. The predicted journey time for CSELR is really really slow by any standards.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby rogf24 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:33 am

At the same time, the two main bus routes (394 & 373?) will now go to Kings Cross Station (and then on to Edgecliff) where you can change for an ESR train to the city. I'm not sure entirely how useful or competitive this is but it can be used in lieu of a light rail interchange.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Frosty » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:41 pm

If the 394 and/or 373 go to Kings Cross via Edgecliff can't you simply change for an Oxford St bus I.e 380 & 333 as it would run via St Vincent's Hospital/Darlinghurst. But aren't some bus routes heading to Green Square post SELR from Anzac Pde. Could be worth changing at Green Square instead.

I'm just imagining SELR to be like notorious Druitt St bus lane city bound. Spending 3 mins at a traffic light waiting just process into the next section.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:56 pm

One concern with this thread is that the items being discussed really belong to the existing light rail thread where some of this has been discussed before.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:02 pm

Customers are much more likely to notice being held up for 3 minutes at each traffic light, when they are one of the 80% of standing passengers in the tram, compared to being one of 20% of the standing passengers on the 14 buses that each tram replaces.

They are also likely to notice how many traffic lights there will be, going down to Haymarket, compared to Flinders and Oxford Street.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:05 pm

Frosty wrote:If the 394 and/or 373 go to Kings Cross via Edgecliff can't you simply change for an Oxford St bus I.e 380 & 333 as it would run via St Vincent's Hospital/Darlinghurst. But aren't some bus routes heading to Green Square post SELR from Anzac Pde. Could be worth changing at Green Square instead.

I'm just imagining SELR to be like notorious Druitt St bus lane city bound. Spending 3 mins at a traffic light waiting just process into the next section.


That's a good question. Where "exactly" are those buses going to go ? A "simple" interchange might involve 4 or 500 metres walk and a couple of very slow pedestrian light cycles.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:10 pm

Here is the link, where the top two items on the list ( as it appears today ), are transport-related.

The auditor issued a report concerning transport on 1 december and a report about the light rail on 30 november.

https://www.audit.nsw.gov.au/publicatio ... st-reports
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:55 am

I support Fleet Lists' Dec. 04 post.
This thread may prove more useful if it just records policy failures in "list" form, facilitating future searches.
Detailed discussion on particular topics should take place in the relevant thread.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:20 am

Frosty wrote:If the 394 and/or 373 go to Kings Cross via Edgecliff can't you simply change for an Oxford St bus I.e 380 & 333 as it would run via St Vincent's Hospital/Darlinghurst. But aren't some bus routes heading to Green Square post SELR from Anzac Pde. Could be worth changing at Green Square instead.
.

Some routes were to terminate at "Todman Ave", not sure about going to Green Square.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Frosty » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:33 pm

I swear I saw some document saying some routes would run to Sydney Uni via Green Square or the Inner West.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby user13548 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:58 pm

Frosty wrote:I swear I saw some document saying some routes would run to Sydney Uni via Green Square or the Inner West.

375, Sydney uní vía todman and bourke ( but not GS)
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:50 pm

Here's my list:
- Re-electing the ALP in 2007 to build the NW Metro which they never would have. I can remember bothering to vote in the Tasmanian electoral commission to vote against the ALP in this election.
- ALP not reinstating services pulled out of the timetable with the drivers shortage adding to traffic congestion
- Slow down
- Kenneally campaign which didn't point out the impracticalities of an NWRL without CBD expansion
- Election of Gladys as Minister
- Foley election campaign which didn't point out limitations in the plans or offer any alternative.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:51 pm

Also add to that minor parties which failed (or chose not to) offer any alternative.
- Refusal to integrate fares until 2015
- Refusal to reduce airport station fares, best done buy buying out the stations which are worth stuff all anyway.
- Refusal to implement a CBD congestion charge
- Failure to upgrade bus priority in any meaningful way for 5 years.
- Planned closure of the ECRL to double deck when dual use would have been possible and superior.
- Spending many billions on the second harbour crossing when it is not needed for decades
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Liamena » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:47 am

I wonder what the cost of buying more Waratahs is now, compared to a couple of years ago.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:11 am

CLOSURE OF CLEVELAND STREET BUS STOPS
Among a number of bus stop closures in the eastern suburbs, two stops on Cleveland Street, near Elizabeth Street, were closed on 20.8.16. This effectively destroyed the interchange between Cleveland Street services and Elizabeth Street services. A small thing perhaps, affecting a small number of passengers, but these little things are cumulative. What / who justified the closures, and the weight, if any, given to the consequent passsenger inconvenience, we may never know. Suffice to say that RMS would have had a hand in it.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:10 am

lunchbox wrote:CLOSURE OF CLEVELAND STREET BUS STOPS
Among a number of bus stop closures in the eastern suburbs, two stops on Cleveland Street, near Elizabeth Street, were closed on 20.8.16. This effectively destroyed the interchange between Cleveland Street services and Elizabeth Street services. A small thing perhaps, affecting a small number of passengers, but these little things are cumulative. What / who justified the closures, and the weight, if any, given to the consequent passsenger inconvenience, we may never know. Suffice to say that RMS would have had a hand in it.

If we're going there, the Elizabeth St stops with the changes for the CSELR are less convenient for commuters, being further from intersections.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby boronia » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:01 pm

The inbound stop was rarely used for either set down or pick up. For inbound pax, there is a better choice of services from the next stop, in Chalmers St, which is only a short distance away. The previous stop in Cleveland St is also quite close.

For the rare likelihood of connection to outbound Elizabeth St services, it is only a short walk up from Chalmers St to Elizabeth St. There is also the option of walking across Elizabeth St from Central

When the stop was operating, it was often difficult for buses to get from the kerb lane into no 2 lane for the right turn at Chalmers, not helped by the slight kink to the left in the road alignment right on the corner.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby simonl » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:39 pm

i was refering to the stops north of Liverpool St. Not so sure about the ones south.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby Frosty » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:44 pm

Lack of effective planning which is a cause of NSW Transport Policy. Look at Green Square, Waterloo, Rosebery and Victoria Park. Every morning I see large queues and groups waiting at bus stops. People having to wait 4 buses before boarding full to the brim. Simply bus capacity hasn't kept up with the demand for PT in these areas.

I've noticed that STAND F at Nine Ways for southbound Bunnerong Rd services can't fit a 14.5m bus without it sticking out and creating a hazard for exiting rear door customers. It's worse if there is another bus infront makes getting on and off a challenge.
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Re: Failures in NSW transport policy.....

Postby lunchbox » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:14 pm

FAILURE IN METRO LONG TERM PLANNING.
Metro Line 2 (City - Parramatta) has been announced (15/11/16), but no indication of where it will interchange with other rail lines, and more particularly, no attempt whatsoever to provide simple, speedy, (cross-platform) interchange with Metro Line 1, despite the fact that Metro 1 stations are still in the design stage.
Last edited by lunchbox on Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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