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New Country Trains

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: New Country Trains

Postby matthewg » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:26 am

Tonymercury wrote:And those interesting words 'proven design' have appeared again.


That's where we buy someone else's train only to find it's not quite compatible with our infrastructure, isn't it ?
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Stu » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:31 pm

^ The only thing proven is the fact that the wheels revolve.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Tonymercury » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:50 am

matthewg wrote:
Tonymercury wrote:And those interesting words 'proven design' have appeared again.


That's where we buy someone else's train only to find it's not quite compatible with our infrastructure, isn't it ?



With the NIF it turned out to be no more than a bad case of wind.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Glen » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:14 pm

Stu wrote:^ The only thing proven is the fact that the wheels revolve.


Rotate, I presume you mean? :lol:
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Stu » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:43 pm

Glen wrote:
Stu wrote:^ The only thing proven is the fact that the wheels revolve.


Rotate, I presume you mean? :lol:


Yes, once again I've been the victim of iPhone 7 auto text. Auto text correction is now off. :oops:
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Regional train fleet replacement

Postby kypros1992 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:07 pm

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... onal-fleet


Replacement of the entire regional train fleet and construction of a new rail maintenance facility announced.

Deputy Premier John Barilaro announced today the replacement of the entire regional train fleet and the construction of a brand new rail maintenance facility in regional NSW.

In a big boost for regional jobs, the fleet replacement program will deliver unprecedented levels of comfort and service for regional rail customers.

Mr Barilaro said an Expression of Interest will soon be issued for the design, construction and maintenance of the new trains and a new maintenance facility, with Dubbo earmarked as the preferred maintenance location.

“It gives me great pleasure to announce this entire new regional fleet will be serviced in regional NSW,” Mr Barilaro said.

“Dubbo has been identified as our preferred location for a brand new maintenance facility to support the new fleet.

“This will be a game-changer for the people of regional NSW, delivering more convenient timetabling and reduced congestion for regional and rural passengers.

“Importantly, the new maintenance facility will also deliver long-term skilled jobs, including apprentices and traineeships for the Orana region.

“This announcement signals the depth of our commitment to rural and regional communities by ensuring that services that deliver for country areas are supported by country jobs,” he said.

The procurement program will not just replace the XPT trains, but the Endeavour and XPLORER trains as well.

The project will include the use of private financing to facilitate the delivery of the new trains and maintenance facility.

Under the Expression of Interest and subsequent tender process, the NSW Government will seek to deliver innovation, increased customer comfort, and greater energy efficiency for regional customers.

A thorough tender evaluation process will be conducted next year, ahead of the contract being awarded in early 2019.

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance said the modernisation of the entire regional fleet would significantly improve regional public transport.

Not only will 60 XPT passenger cars (plus 19 diesel locomotives) be replaced, but so too will 23 XPLORER and 28 Endeavour passenger cars.

“Modernising the entire regional fleet allows the opportunity to incorporate benefits that were not available in 1982, when the first XPT rolled onto our tracks,” Mr Constance said.

“When the NSW Government promised to deliver new trains to replace the ageing XPT fleet, we also committed to looking at the feasibility of replacing Endeavour and XPLORER trains.

“The result of those considerations has been a decision to replace all three sets, in favour of more modern rolling stock,” he said.

Member for Dubbo Troy Grant said the construction of a brand new rail maintenance facility would be a massive boost for the Dubbo region.

“Today’s announcement is pivotal in turning Dubbo into a regional economic powerhouse and will provide better services, not only for Dubbo locals, but for visitors from far and wide,” he said.

The new trains will be operated by NSW TrainLink, the NSW Government owned regional rail and coach service provider.

The new maintenance facility is earmarked for a site accessed off White Street in Dubbo. It was selected as the preferred location after a comprehensive analysis of potential sites against criteria that included operational, engineering, environmental and construction considerations.

Work will commence in the coming weeks towards obtaining the necessary Planning Approvals for this new facility and it is hoped that the new facility will be built ahead of the new trains expected in the early 2020’s.

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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby Linto63 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:17 pm

All for creating jobs in regional areas, but surely it is more sensible to have the maintenance centre at the hub of the network, i.e. Sydney, rather than a far flung outpost of the network that will require large amounts of dead running, regardless of how well the diagrams are done?
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby boronia » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:23 pm

Especially when there is only one service per day to Dubbo.
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:51 am

Linto63 wrote:All for creating jobs in regional areas, but surely it is more sensible to have the maintenance centre at the hub of the network, i.e. Sydney, rather than a far flung outpost of the network that will require large amounts of dead running, regardless of how well the diagrams are done?


If there is a standard car design the regular service to Dubbo would presumably become teh vehicle for transfers,
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby Linto63 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:13 am

Currently the 4-car XPT on the Dubbo service is captive to that service, while the other 5-car sets operate on a repeating cycle that seems them operate all other services in a predetermined order. Yes the diagrams can easily be rearranged so that a set due for heavy maintenance operates the down Dubbo service with a set coming off maintenance operating the return and likewise the Bathurst Bullet will be able to cycle the Endeavour replacements. But inevitably they will go pop from time to time and a six hour dead run will be required.

Obviously a facility will still be needed in Sydney to handle light maintenance, presumably Eveleigh with the XPT Service Centre to be flogged off to have another couple of thousand apartments rammed in. Although IIRC Eveleigh does not have a carriage wash with Xplorers and Endeavours being done at the XPT Service Centre.

The replacement stock is likely to be an underfloor DMU, unlikely to be head end powered like the XPTs. Am guessing all will be built from the same platform much like the Xplorer and Endavours with different configurations for long and short haul. With the long distance services probably doing 1/4 of their running under the wires, perhaps bio-modes that are catching on in Europe at the moment will be considered?
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:00 am

Or modified Vlocities.
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby flitter » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 am

Perhaps the Hitachi Super Expresses that will replace the XPT equivalents in the UK... they're dual mode and will run the same routes as the HST/XPT do over there
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby matthewg » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:59 am

flitter wrote:Perhaps the Hitachi Super Expresses that will replace the XPT equivalents in the UK... they're dual mode and will run the same routes as the HST/XPT do over there


There is no enough under the wiring running to really justify the extra cost and train complexity.

The only reason would be to work around extremely strict emissions restrictions in Sydney. But we let cruise ships in the harbour burn sludge to keep the hotel power running because 'shore power is too expensive to provide', so I doubt there will be much reason to spend extra on a bi-mode train for cleaner air. It's demonstrated that the powers-that-be don't care about clean air.

Unless the likes of Hitachi do a really good sales job on the options. TfNSW has a track record for falling for vendor sales pitches. An AT300 could be a nice XPT replacement.
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby rogf24 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:34 am

Speaking of the air. That pollution on Monday was quite something. If we let occasions like that pop up, I don't see the big fuss over a ship really.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:35 am

True, and of course we did away with a fleet of 10-15 year old electric locomotives in the mid-90s that were fueled by a resource we have plenty of (coal) vs one we have to import (diesel). The Dubbo XPT operates under the wires for 34% of its journey, the Armidale Xplorer for 28% and the Grafton XPT for 23%, but the rest are negligible.
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Re: Regional train fleet replacement

Postby Linto63 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:41 am

rogf24 wrote:Speaking of the air. That pollution on Monday was quite something. If we let occasions like that pop up, I don't see the big fuss over a ship really.
But the ships do pump out a lot of emissions. They now have to burn a lower grade of fuel while within the confines of Sydney Harbour. http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/2 ... y-harbour/
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby matthewg » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:57 am

Linto63 wrote:True, and of course we did away with a fleet of 10-15 year old electric locomotives in the mid-90s that were fueled by a resource we have plenty of (coal) vs one we have to import (diesel).

And the reasons behind the removal of the 86 class off the coal drags probably still applies - unless they change the access charging system, it will be cheaper to burn imported oil than pay the excess premium to use the overhead wire infrastructure despite electric being a much cheaper energy source.

There is a good chance once all costs are considered, running an electric train in NSW is still more expensive than running a diesel one.

I'd love to see bimodes and them running pure electric at every opportunity to do so, but I can see it happening in NSW unless there is a major change in policy over emissions and how the railway access charges are apportioned.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:31 pm

My thinking RE: a Dubbo maintenance centre, is that apart from a vote buying exercise it could be a bit of future planning. If an east coast HSR is ever built then the only remaining regional line that would feasibly remain would be to Dubbo.

Although this theory depends on the assumption that we have some incredibly forward thinking bureaucrats...
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:16 pm

matthewg wrote:And the reasons behind the removal of the 86 class off the coal drags probably still applies - unless they change the access charging system, it will be cheaper to burn imported oil than pay the excess premium to use the overhead wire infrastructure despite electric being a much cheaper energy source.
This was all in an era when both FreightCorp and the electricity assets were state government owned. Recall when the National Rail Corporation took over interstate services,it deemed it more economical to operate diesels throughout, even though they were still changing locomotives at Flemington on through services at that time.

Sounds like the NSW government effectively priced them outside of the market when there was an opportunity to recoup some of the cost of maintaining the infrastructure. The only section dewired since I think has been the Port Kembla branch, although bits have been removed from the Metropolitan Goods Line.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Liamena » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:15 pm

mandonov wrote:My thinking RE: a Dubbo maintenance centre, is that apart from a vote buying exercise it could be a bit of future planning. If an east coast HSR is ever built then the only remaining regional line that would feasibly remain would be to Dubbo.


Any HSR is obviously a long way off.

But supposing one was built, why would that force you to shut down the trains to Armidale and Moree ?
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby boronia » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:58 pm

I wonder if these new trains will be wider bodied like the new IC sets, so Andy can claim the same "operational benefits"??
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:21 pm

Liamena wrote:Any HSR is obviously a long way off.

But supposing one was built, why would that force you to shut down the trains to Armidale and Moree ?

... because I forgot about them.

You would probably terminate them in Newcastle though as a feeder to the HSR and have combined ticketing.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:21 pm

Another Milestone for Regional Rail Project
Published30 Nov 2017

The replacement of the entire regional rail fleet has hit another milestone with three shortlisted applicants chosen to put their best plans forward to deliver the new fleet and maintenance facility.

The three successful applicants are Regional Futures, led by Downer, Bombardier Consortium and Momentum Trains, led by CAF.

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance said the replacement of the regional fleet would deliver huge benefits for public transport customers across the state.

“We are looking for high-quality, innovative and value for money proposals from the three applicants. They will be asked to provide details of how they will deliver trains that provide improved comfort, safety and reliability for regional customers,” Mr Constance said.

“This program gives us the opportunity to incorporate modern benefits for those travelling long distances as we replace trains which are up to 35 years old.”

Deputy Premier John Barilaro said the program would replace the ageing XPT, Endeavour and XPLORER trains, and the NSW Government identified Dubbo as the preferred location to build a maintenance facility.

“I am glad to see this project progressing well, and it means we are getting closer to rural and regional NSW getting a much deserved improvement to transport,” Mr Barilaro said.

“This project has the capacity to bring long term, sustainable jobs – including traineeships and apprenticeships to the Orana region. We want to make sure that services that deliver for country areas are supported by local jobs.”

Member for Dubbo Troy Grant applauded the speed at which the fleet renewal program is progressing.

“This Government is getting on with the job of putting new trains on our tracks, because people in Dubbo, and right across country NSW deserve a comfortable and reliable XPT service,” Mr Grant said

Transport for NSW aims to award a contract for the new fleet in 2019 with the first trains anticipated to be on the tracks in the early 2020s.

The new trains will be operated by NSW TrainLink, the NSW Government owned regional rail and coach service provider.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... il-project
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby lunchbox » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:45 pm

Ahhh, but will the new trains have fixed or reversible seating?
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby tonyp » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:06 pm

lunchbox wrote:Ahhh, but will the new trains have fixed or reversible seating?

Fixed initially, then after a large public outcry and the expenditure of a not inconsiderable sum of money, reversible. :roll: :wink:
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