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Parramatta light rail

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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby mandonov » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:42 am

IMO if we're going to bother with PERL, make it go somewhere new like North Rocks, Northmead, and North Parramatta. Use the Carlingford line for light rail as a) that's clearly what's going to happen anyway, and b) there's no great redevelopment potential around the line to justify a metro.

I'm also interested to see if there might be a branch of the SOP light rail that goes to Rhodes via Wentworth Point. Wentworth Point is already slated to be the densest suburb in the country, and the new bridge between it and Rhodes (already very dense) allows for a potential light rail to be built across it. The tram could even connect with the new Rhodes Wharf so that it isn't so isolated. Rhodes isn't finished growing yet either with the land west of the station about to be developed, and the houses between the rail line and Concord Road earmarked for more high rise.

To the people that still don't think Olympic Park has the demand, the Carter Street Precinct plans were recently released and they call for 5,500 dwellings and a new business park to be built between Olympic Park and the M4. That's in addition to the new residential and commercial towers that are planned for Olympic Park itself. The growth in SOP, Wentworth Point, Rhodes and the potential in Camellia and Silverwater is insane.

So if the private sector is willing to invest in a light rail to these areas, then I don't see what the problem is. The more private money put into this line and it's functional components (maintenance depot, vehicles, Parra CBD), the more government money that is freed up for other worthwhile (yet development light) extensions like Macquarie Park and Castle Hill.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby rogf24 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:37 pm

The route hasn't been finalised yet but what about access to DFO? I suppose there is a strong case for access to the shopping centre.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:56 pm

DFO?
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:07 pm

Presumably he means the DFO off Homebush Bay Drive, first exit north of the M4 IIRC.

Seems like it would be a nice to have. You can get some pretty gnarly traffic snarls there. Not sure how often though.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:30 pm

So DFO stands for Direct Factory Outlets? I had not come across that acronym before.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:41 pm

At the risk of a pointless post: Image
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:26 pm

mandonov wrote:IMO if we're going to bother with PERL, make it go somewhere new like North Rocks, Northmead, and North Parramatta. Use the Carlingford line for light rail as a) that's clearly what's going to happen anyway, and b) there's no great redevelopment potential around the line to justify a metro.

I love your thinking. Although all of those suggested locations are a circuitous orbital. Why not just Pennant Hills Rd/Oatlands?
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby mandonov » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:48 pm

rogf24 wrote:The route hasn't been finalised yet but what about access to DFO? I suppose there is a strong case for access to the shopping centre.

I'm not sure how a route could combine servicing Olympic Park (with the ability to run during events), the Carter Street Precinct, AND the DFO.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby mandonov » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:56 pm

simonl wrote:I love your thinking. Although all of those suggested locations are a circuitous orbital. Why not just Pennant Hills Rd/Oatlands?

I agree. Epping-Carlingford-Oatlands-North Parramatta-Parramatta. Better access to Carlingford, a regional bus interchange could be at Oatlands, North Parra would serve development in the heritage and industrial precincts as well as Castle/Baulkham Hills light rail, and Parramatta could allow for a southward connection to Merrylands.

Bit off topic now. :oops:
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby rogf24 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:30 pm

mandonov wrote:
rogf24 wrote:The route hasn't been finalised yet but what about access to DFO? I suppose there is a strong case for access to the shopping centre.

I'm not sure how a route could combine servicing Olympic Park (with the ability to run during events), the Carter Street Precinct, AND the DFO.


Parramatta Road/Strathfield --> Underwood Road --> Shirley Strickland Drive (or Sarah Durack Avenue) --> Carter Street. A bit of a loopy route but no worse than the IWLR loop in Pyrmont, you'll also might have to demolish a few things. Lot's of benefit here since DFO gets rammed all the time.

mandonov wrote:
simonl wrote:I love your thinking. Although all of those suggested locations are a circuitous orbital. Why not just Pennant Hills Rd/Oatlands?

I agree. Epping-Carlingford-Oatlands-North Parramatta-Parramatta. Better access to Carlingford, a regional bus interchange could be at Oatlands, North Parra would serve development in the heritage and industrial precincts as well as Castle/Baulkham Hills light rail, and Parramatta could allow for a southward connection to Merrylands.


Yes, a much better option (It was what I thinking about in my Orbital metro foam party earlier) and one that was raised by SMH's transport review (Where I got the route idea from). Anyway, yes we're off topic very much now here.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:36 pm

rogf24 wrote:no worse than the IWLR loop in Pyrmont, you'll also might have to demolish a few things

Like saying no less death than an abattoir.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:25 pm

simonl wrote:
Transtopic wrote:But it does connect directly with Macquarie University Station and the Macquarie Shopping Centre which is the major transport interchange, so it can't be ignored.

"Directly" is a bit of a stretch. As I previously stated, you'd need to virtually double back to reach the Uni and even the uni station. Once you do that, you make it pretty unattractive to ever extend the line.

I don't quite understand what you mean. The Parramatta Council feasibility proposed that the light rail route would be along the County Rd as far as Herring Rd and then along Herring Rd, across Epping Rd, to the main western entrance of Macquarie Centre adjacent to Macquarie University Station and bus interchange. The entrance to Macquarie University is opposite. There's no doubling back. You may be confusing this with the previously proposed BRT route which ran the whole length of the County Rd to Epping Rd and continued on to Lane Cove Rd. It turned left into Lane Cove Rd and left again into Waterloo Rd continuing on to Macquarie University Station at the intersection of Waterloo Rd and Herring Rd. That's not the proposal.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Alright. I had assumed it would run the whole length of the County Rd reservation, although I can see why they wouldn't.

Thanks for the correction.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:47 pm

simonl wrote:Alright. I had assumed it would run the whole length of the County Rd reservation, although I can see why they wouldn't.

Thanks for the correction.

My pleasure.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:30 am

Has anyone heard more about how this line will get into Parramatta? I've seen a map which suggests it will just run up Macquarie St, but parts of Macquarie St are two lane. If closed to cars, how will the (relatively significant) westbound car traffic get through? Or can two tram tracks and at least one traffic lane be squeezed in?

I have had a radical thought this morning. What if it's closed to car traffic only west of Smith St? The eastern part of Macquarie St is a bit wider and largely surrounded by school yard space rather than buildings. You could then have a must turn right at Smith St, two way George St, perhaps the full length so long as there is no right turn off the Gasworks Bridge (Macarthur/Harris Sts) onto George St.

A major limitation with that is that it seems that there would be no way into Civic Place. United Lane would also be blocked and Horwood Place would probably have to become one way exiting to Smith St via Macquarie Lane. The good point would be that people would love the car free Macquarie St around the mall. You might also have to extend the mall up to George St which doesn't seem a negative.

Perhaps this is this the plan. Does anyone know what the actual plan is?
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:19 pm

simonl wrote:Has anyone heard more about how this line will get into Parramatta? I've seen a map which suggests it will just run up Macquarie St, but parts of Macquarie St are two lane. If closed to cars, how will the (relatively significant) westbound car traffic get through? Or can two tram tracks and at least one traffic lane be squeezed in?

I have had a radical thought this morning. What if it's closed to car traffic only west of Smith St? The eastern part of Macquarie St is a bit wider and largely surrounded by school yard space rather than buildings. You could then have a must turn right at Smith St, two way George St, perhaps the full length so long as there is no right turn off the Gasworks Bridge (Macarthur/Harris Sts) onto George St.

A major limitation with that is that it seems that there would be no way into Civic Place. United Lane would also be blocked and Horwood Place would probably have to become one way exiting to Smith St via Macquarie Lane. The good point would be that people would love the car free Macquarie St around the mall. You might also have to extend the mall up to George St which doesn't seem a negative.

Perhaps this is this the plan. Does anyone know what the actual plan is?

From my reading of the Part 2 feasibility study, which is the only document detailing the route so far, the light rail line would branch from the Carlingford Line corridor near the location of the existing Camellia Station (at that stage the light rail was proposed as being separate from the existing rail line pending a decision on its future use). It would turn into Grand Ave North, cross James Ruse Drive into Tramway Ave and continue along Noller Pde and George St to Harris St. It would then turn south into Harris St and west into Macquarie St through to Church St where it would turn north. The schematic diagram suggests that the centre lanes would be for the exclusive use of the light rail with one outer lane in each direction for motor traffic. Kerbside parking would have to be eliminated along the route to accommodate this configuration.

The problem is that George St and Macquarie Sts are both one-way streets (east and west respectively) and there will need to be some reorganisation of traffic flows within the CBD. I'm not aware of any proposal to close off Macquarie St to traffic. The other major issue is that running the light rail down Macquarie St means it is a block away from Parramatta Station and the bus interchange, which is not ideal. Perhaps TfNSW will address this negative factor in their assessment of the route through the CBD.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:30 pm

The other problem with that is that the bit of Macquarie St between United Lane and Church St is only two lanes wide - no room to eliminate parking, take two lanes for a tram and still have through traffic. Perhaps narrowing lanes and/or footpaths can allow a third lane to be added - otherwise you need to knock down buildings for three dedicated lanes.

Interesting about running along George St to Harris St. I thought you'd run through part of the park to not screw traffic on the Gasworks Bridge. Bad enough now with the speed bump/pedestrian crossing and wholly unnecessary IMO traffic lights at George St
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:06 pm

simonl wrote:The other problem with that is that the bit of Macquarie St between United Lane and Church St is only two lanes wide - no room to eliminate parking, take two lanes for a tram and still have through traffic. Perhaps narrowing lanes and/or footpaths can allow a third lane to be added - otherwise you need to knock down buildings for three dedicated lanes.

I drove down Macquarie St today and while the road carriageway certainly does appear to narrow towards Church St, I think it is more to do with footpath widening than the width of the road corridor itself. It may be possible to increase the width of the carriageway to 4 lanes (2 light rail + 2 traffic) by narrowing the footpaths. However, there is still the problem of being too far away from the transport interchange.

A possible alternative route would be from the Carlingford Line along Hassall St, Parkes St, Station St, Darcy St and through the Church St Mall to Church St, which would bring it closer to Parramatta Station and bus interchange. Running it through the Church St Mall may be a contentious issue, although this is not an uncommon practice in many European cities.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:49 pm

Footpaths are wide around Civic place but not so wide at church St. The lanes are wide but who says they are wide enough for a third?

Please no to running along Parkes St. Hassal st until station St would be fine.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:55 pm

Darcy St has some merit. I'm a bit troubled by the bit along station St between Darcy and hassal sts though. Perhaps come in from the other end and widen station St. Actually I think it is called Smith Street by then.

I guess another option is running along hassal st to Argyle Street and redirect the northern buses to the old interchange.

But all this is pointless until they get rid of the absurd idea of going to Epping.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:18 pm

simonl wrote:Darcy St has some merit. I'm a bit troubled by the bit along station St between Darcy and hassal sts though. Perhaps come in from the other end and widen station St. Actually I think it is called Smith Street by then.

I guess another option is running along hassal st to Argyle Street and redirect the northern buses to the old interchange.

But all this is pointless until they get rid of the absurd idea of going to Epping.

Argyle St could certainly work before turning into Church St Mall and it could still be shared with both light rail and buses.

It's not really pointless, because whichever route from Parramatta is eventually chosen, they will all have a common alignment through the CBD.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:45 pm

Transtopic wrote:It's not really pointless, because whichever route from Parramatta is eventually chosen, they will all have a common alignment through the CBD.

Only if the route via Olympic Park is actually built. Or Windsor Rd on its own. I'm not confident either would be.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:59 pm

simonl wrote:
Transtopic wrote:It's not really pointless, because whichever route from Parramatta is eventually chosen, they will all have a common alignment through the CBD.

Only if the route via Olympic Park is actually built. Or Windsor Rd on its own. I'm not confident either would be.

Whether the Olympic Park route is built or not, a Macquarie Park route would still follow the same alignment from the Carlingford Line through the CBD. I can't imagine them having separate routes, if that's what you're suggesting. I'd be very surprised if a Parramatta light rail project, whichever route is chosen, didn't proceed because the government has already invested a lot of political capital in it. While the Olympic Park route would seem to have the front running, it doesn't preclude the other route options being implemented as later stages.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby simonl » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:04 pm

I thought we were talking about a situation where the MQP route was via Carlingford and Epping, which will never happen. So the LR into the Parra CBD can only happen if the via Olympic Park route is built or if the Hills route is built by itself. Or some other route, I guess, which hasn't been discussed here.

Or they could just go via Eastwood.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Postby Transtopic » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:58 pm

simonl wrote:I thought we were talking about a situation where the MQP route was via Carlingford and Epping, which will never happen. So the LR into the Parra CBD can only happen if the via Olympic Park route is built or if the Hills route is built by itself. Or some other route, I guess, which hasn't been discussed here.

Or they could just go via Eastwood.

I agree that a Macquarie Park route via Carlingford and Epping is highly unlikely for reasons already expressed, although it could still run as far as Carlingford by converting the existing rail line. The government has been equivocal in its language in describing the Macquarie Park option as being via 'Carlingford' with no specific mention of Epping, which seems odd, although everyone has mistakenly assumed that it would be included. I acknowledge your earlier comment that you have received confirmation that the route via Eastwood as recommended in Parramatta Council's feasibility study is not being considered, but is it? They may be forced to fall back on this route alignment when they realise how impracticable it is to go via Epping. A route via Eastwood would still use the Carlingford Line from Camellia as far as Dundas to Kissing Point Rd. A possible compromise is to choose the route via Eastwood to Macquarie Park with a branch to Carlingford. Otherwise, they abandon any link to Macquarie Park altogether, which would seem to be at odds with the feasibility study's recommendation that this should be the preferred first stage, providing the most immediate benefit.

I fear that the current investigation is not an objective assessment of the various route options, but is more influenced by lobbying from vested interests, particularly on the Olympic Park corridor.

Regardless, the Parramatta CBD route would be common to both the Macquarie Park and Olympic Park options as well as a Windsor Rd option to the Hills. There has also been speculation that the Bankstown route, which has a lower priority, would follow the same alignment to the Carlingford Line at Camellia, before swinging south towards Granville. Camellia would be the hub in the spoke.
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