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Parramatta light rail

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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:14 am

mandonov wrote: The only reason this is going north of the river is because the metro is going south of the river.

It also suggests that all that industrial/residential land along the north side of the river is going to be rezoned for high rise residential.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby boronia » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:30 am

Geo101 wrote:
boronia wrote:If the government plans to put light rail down a street, it is because they plan to put high rise in that street.


OK. That part I understand, sort of.

So Olympic Park gets

1. Existing rail seemed to work well at the 2000 Olympics, now runs every 10 minutes from the mainline, from 5 am to midnight 7 days a week.
2. A new metro station on the next metro, and probably a similar timetable.
AND
3. A tram line, erm, LR which meanders from Westmead back and forth across industrial wastelands and places like Ermington, come potential high rise areas, and get there in a slower time?

I'm by no means arguing that new infill areas shouldn't have PT such as light rail enforced, but...

As an Inner west type person, I was stunned by this new route.


It could be assumed that that T7 services would be scaled back once the Metro and LR are functional. OP station possibly limited to major events services from outer suburbs.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Geo101 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:38 am

mandonov wrote:Your thinking about it as the end to end trip, which is the wrong way to understand it.

Wentworth Point is set to be the densest suburb in the country. It's currently only served by a slow ferry and a bridge to a train station.


Permanent bus lanes across that new bridge to Rhodes station, in fact, why not make a T-Way between Rhodes station and the new metro one at Olympic Park? They could choose which direction to take, buses full each way in both morning and evening peak.

ditto to Melrose Park. Why not upgrade West Ryde station interchange, and provide permanent bus lanes down Parramatta Road, with traffic light priority? If I'm not mistaken, a bus lane already exists almost the whole way along that ~2km stretch of Victoria Road. Just add in the missing parts.

And while we are at it, rather than extend the tram past Rydalmere, why not make an interchange there (plenty of room) and just transform the rail corridor to Carlingford to a T-Way. Put the money saved toward the new metro.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby mandonov » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:57 pm

Because buses aren't 'sexy' in a PR sense, and whether it's true or not, a tram is seen as a catalyst to development much more than a BRT is.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:12 pm

^I do think the tram will certainly have much more impact to these areas than buses but we really can't tolerate more billion dollar tramways. Get the cost down substantially first.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Linto63 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:10 pm

The Australian are reporting that John Holland and Lend Lease have decided not to bid for the design & construct contract having been put off by difficulties encountered on the CBD&SE project and the way the deal is to be structured.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... a4e66eba81

Soon after he became NSW Transport Minister, Andrew Constance asked bureaucrats what it would cost to dump Premier Gladys Berejiklian’s controversial $2.1 billion CBD light rail project and whether abandoning it was possible.

Bureaucrats told him and his senior staff the contract signed by then transport minister Ms Berejiklian was watertight and cancelling it would create “sovereign risk” and be too expensive, The Australian has learnt. Since then Mr Constance has had to make several announcements about the light rail line and praised it.

After the 2015 Coalition election win, Mr Constance was moved by former premier Mike Baird from Treasury to Transport, with Ms Berejiklian made treasurer, ahead of her becoming Premier less than two years later.

According to an account of one early meeting, Transport for NSW secretary Tim Reardon and other senior bureaucrats told Mr Constance there was “sovereign risk” in any attempt to dump the line. “The words he (Mr Reardon) used were ‘the Spanish have tied us up in knots on the contract’,” a source in the meeting said.

“The contract was signed in such a rush, every alteration we want to make is costing us five times as much as it should have.

“There was a view (in Mr Constance’s office) at the time that this was a dog of a project.”

At another meeting, bureaucrats again told Mr Constance and his senior staff the project could not be cancelled.

The Australian has learnt two big Australian infrastructure construction companies will not bid for work for the Parramatta light rail project, which the government reannounced yesterday, partly because of dramas associated with the CBD light rail. Lend Lease and John Holland have decided not to bid for the design and construct part of the plan.

A combination of difficulties the Spanish contractors Acciona have had removing and replacing utilities in the CBD and the way the Parramatta deal has been structured has put them off, sources at the companies confirmed.

Yesterday Mr Constance did not deny his 2015 wish to cancel the CBD light rail project.

“Any new minister receives a full brief of current projects, what stage they’re up to and makes an assessment of whether projects provide good outcomes and should proceed,” he said in a statement yesterday. “Sydney light rail proceeded because it will provide a great outcome for Sydney. We do not comment on ­internal meetings.”

Mr Constance and Ms Berejiklian announced a preferred route for stage two of the $3.5 billion Parramatta light rail yesterday, from Rydalmere north of the Parramatta River to Olympic Park. A first stage, from Westmead to Carlingford, is due to be com­pleted in 2023.

Yesterday the opposition questioned how the project would be funded, given the state budget allocated only $1bn to the project.

The Australian revealed yesterday the government was pulling out all stops to block the release of documents on the CBD light rail project, which the opposition thinks may show Ms Berejiklian misled the public when she said a $500 million blowout was for improvements. The Auditor-General found 94 per cent of the rise was “was due to incorrect estimates in the business case”.

Asked why the government would not release the documents, Mr Constance told parliament yesterday the matter was being handled “at arm’s length” by the department and there were “commercial sensitivities”.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby swtt » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:20 pm

Geo101 wrote:Permanent bus lanes across that new bridge to Rhodes station, in fact, why not make a T-Way between Rhodes station and the new metro one at Olympic Park? They could choose which direction to take, buses full each way in both morning and evening peak.


There is already a T-way across Bennelong Bridge!

When there is no need to make bus lanes on Hill Road due to no congestion, why bother creating a "new" transitway from Bennelong Bridge into SOP?
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Liamena » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:57 am

The "industrial land" on the north side of the Parramatta river has already been re-developed.

The problem, as I see it, is that public transport continues to be mainly used by people heading to the main CBD and other satellite CBD's. People won't use it otherwise, unless it is fortuitously convenient, and even then, probably not.

This tramway plan seems crippled by lack of effective connection to the rail network, except at Parramatta. If I lived at Ermington or Melrose Park or Wentworth Point, I don't see how I could used this tram if I wanted to go to Sydney or even to North Ryde/Macquarie or Burwood or anywhere else.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:59 am

Liamena wrote:The problem, as I see it, is that public transport continues to be mainly used by people heading to the main CBD and other satellite CBD's. People won't use it otherwise, unless it is fortuitously convenient, and even then, probably not.

This tramway plan seems crippled by lack of effective connection to the rail network, except at Parramatta. If I lived at Ermington or Melrose Park or Wentworth Point, I don't see how I could used this tram if I wanted to go to Sydney or even to North Ryde/Macquarie or Burwood or anywhere else.

This network is focussed on Parramatta which is continuing to develop as a major CBD. The Carlingford branch serves UWS which would be a significant market and for whom Parramatta is a convenient interchange. The rest of the market on that branch presently interchanges at Clyde which is basically nowhere and again that will benefit from refocussing on Parramatta.

The eastern branch will connect to two rail systems at Olympic Park as well as Parramatta. They get it good both ways.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Liamena » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 pm

tonyp wrote:
The eastern branch will connect to two rail systems at Olympic Park as well as Parramatta. They get it good both ways.


Two erratically reliable interchanges. Might as well go and live at Springwood, you'd have a quicker and more reliable trip to the CBD.

A lot of people change jobs often. Changing home is much harder. I would not favour living at Wenthworth Point either as a principal place of residence, or as an investment, based on some assumption that I would always have a job at Parramatta.

Part of the problem also is that the road network in that area is fundamentally broken. There is no road from Camelia to Silverwater. There is no road from Silverwater to Wentworth Point. There is no road from Wentworth Point to Ryde. Now some correctards might say that is a good thing, it encourages public transport use, but public transport is not usable for everything. Making people drive 12 km to the nearest hospital or shopping centre or cinema or veterinarian or supermarket or high school, which is actually 4 km away, encourages more driving, not less !
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby gascoyne » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:09 pm

Precisely how is the light rail announced so far (stages 1 and 2) supposed to get people into Parramatta. The bottleneck is the track east of Camellia which has to carry trams from both Carlingford (8 per hour) and Olympic Park (12 per hour?). 20 trams have 80 seats if you're lucky and maybe 200 passengers total assuming everyone uses a deodorant. So that's 4000 passengers per hour into Parramatta from the east. Why spend billions for that? Parramatta might grow to have 50000 jobs. Where will the tracks go for the other light rail lines which are supposed to feed into Parramatta eventually?
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:12 pm

^ Hopefully we won't have a repeat of some arrogant prick of a government closing them down around 2080, claiming flying cars are the way to go.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby rogf24 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:50 pm

Liamena wrote:
tonyp wrote:
The eastern branch will connect to two rail systems at Olympic Park as well as Parramatta. They get it good both ways.


Two erratically reliable interchanges. Might as well go and live at Springwood, you'd have a quicker and more reliable trip to the CBD.


Remember that there's a new metro line going through those two stations soon.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:05 pm

rogf24 wrote:Remember that there's a new metro line going through those two stations soon.

Yes, that's what I was referring to when I wrote:

The eastern branch will connect to two rail systems at Olympic Park as well as Parramatta. They get it good both ways.


There will be both metro and suburban services at both ends.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:24 pm

gascoyne wrote:Precisely how is the light rail announced so far (stages 1 and 2) supposed to get people into Parramatta. The bottleneck is the track east of Camellia which has to carry trams from both Carlingford (8 per hour) and Olympic Park (12 per hour?). 20 trams have 80 seats if you're lucky and maybe 200 passengers total assuming everyone uses a deodorant. So that's 4000 passengers per hour into Parramatta from the east. Why spend billions for that? Parramatta might grow to have 50000 jobs. Where will the tracks go for the other light rail lines which are supposed to feed into Parramatta eventually?

I think you mean the tracks west of Camellia. Don't worry, I make that sort of mistake too. :wink:

I assume they've having double track stub termini and some sort of priority at lights. 20 tphpd is a 3 minute headway. However I'm not sure what size tram they're using. I hope the platforms will be 60-70 metres to provide for future capacity expansion. So with 30 metre trams (about 220 pax) that will be 4,400 phpd. With 45 metre trams (about 320 pax) that would be 6,400 pphpd. With a 60+ metre tram (like CSELR) that would be about 8,800 pphpd. Then they could expand to triple track terminus at Westmead and that would provide for safe 2 minute headways or, heaven forbid (tongue in cheek), they can have a turning loop at Westmead delivering potentially about 30 second headways (assuming full light priority!). The capacity of the B line to the northern beaches, to provide perspective, is about 1,500 pphpd.

There's plenty of scope for capacity increase there is they plan and construct it properly. Plus it's not the only mode serving Parramatta.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby mandonov » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:23 pm

Westmead will have a triple track terminus from Stage 1, and the line will use 45m trams.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:36 am

mandonov wrote:Westmead will have a triple track terminus from Stage 1, and the line will use 45m trams.

Thank you mandonov, you saved lazy me from looking it up! :wink:

Well then that would allow 2 minute headways (subject to the priority being properly sorted along the route), which would be about 9,600 pphpd.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby GazzaOak » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:03 am

Lets say they build the light rail and metro at sydney olympic park, would they actually do away with the spur line from lidcombe to SOP (eg would the metro and light rail would be enough for a 200k+ events there).
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby grog » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:18 am

I'd say no. I used to work at Olympic Park and while I usually got the bus from Strathfield, on the occasion that I did get the train to Lidcombe there were many people on those shuttle trains dashing from platform 0 to platform 5 to get the Bankstown line trains. Removing the shuttle service would be very disruptive to a lot of people without an easy replacement.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby tonyp » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:23 am

GazzaOak wrote:Lets say they build the light rail and metro at sydney olympic park, would they actually do away with the spur line from lidcombe to SOP (eg would the metro and light rail would be enough for a 200k+ events there).

200,000? That would be another Olympic Games. The ANZ stadium appears to now have a capacity of about 80,000 although the Wikipedia article on it says 95,000 attended the Adele concert. You might be able to shift 50,000 in an hour between the metro and the tram in one direction, but assuming some of the crowd would be going the other direction on the metro, that might kick up to 80,000+. I would think that you'd want to keep the suburban station and branch in place and you'd be throwing in buses as well if crowds at the site get up to those sorts of levels.

I assume the plan is for the metro to have its own underground station and that they're not purloining the existing station for the metro.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby grog » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:34 am

There are often days when there are 2 or 3 events on at the same time. The Royal Easter Show also draws up to 120k on its busiest days, sometimes also coinciding with ANZ stadium events.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby mandonov » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:04 pm

There's one or two days a year where concurrent events equal to around 150k in the Olympic Park precinct.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby GazzaOak » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:59 pm

tonyp wrote:
I assume the plan is for the metro to have its own underground station and that they're not purloining the existing station for the metro.


hmm, fair point, have the existing station for usage on big event days (where its can exceed from 80-150k at one time), but for 90% of events held there, i don't see them having special suburban services for that (for when the metro and light rail come in)... so i think the suburban line won't be used at all outside of big events. (but they may end up have special metro/tram services for medium sized events, i even personally think that its will only end up being used 4-6 times a year)
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby boronia » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:53 pm

GazzaOak wrote:
tonyp wrote:
I assume the plan is for the metro to have its own underground station and that they're not purloining the existing station for the metro.


hmm, fair point, have the existing station for usage on big event days (where its can exceed from 80-150k at one time), but for 90% of events held there, i don't see them having special suburban services for that (for when the metro and light rail come in)... so i think the suburban line won't be used at all outside of big events. (but they may end up have special metro/tram services for medium sized events, i even personally think that its will only end up being used 4-6 times a year)

With a bit of creative thinking, they might possibly have the two stations integrated together?

Keeping the line to Lidcombe would be better for connections to Bankstown line, and even the South line (rather than pax having to go to Parramatta or Strathfield.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:05 pm

Just imagine the gentrification that will result. Rosehill will become Posehill, Camellia will be Bigdeallia and Parramatta will become I'mallthatmatters!! Oatlands (Gloatlands :lol: ) will be the north shore of the future.
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