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Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beaches

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Re: the B-Line experience

Postby gld59 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:33 pm

tonyp wrote:
Cremorne wrote:There is VERY low head room on the top deck - anyone over 5'3 (1.6 m) can easily touch the ceiling and anyone slighter taller has to stoop.

Ahh, so that's how they deal with the centre-of-gravity issue!

You'd need to squash the lower deck to do that properly, though.

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Re: the B-Line experience

Postby tonyp » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:58 pm

gld59 wrote:You'd need to squash the lower deck to do that properly, though.

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Wouldn't the low floor on the lower deck significantly assist that objective?

I always felt that in principle the Atlanteans could have been low floor on the lower deck with that rear engine. I'm sure there wouldn't have been that many mechanical bits underneath to relocate. But I guess back then nobody was yet thinking that way and portal axles perhaps weren't invented. Thinking about low floor trams started in the 1980s (well actually it started in the 1910s in USA with the Hedley Doyle!) and flow-down to buses began soon afterwards.

Re the driver checking upstairs, don't the buses have CCTV (the modern equivalent of the Atlantean's periscope!).
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Re: the B-Line experience

Postby Swift » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:56 pm

tonyp wrote: Re the driver checking upstairs, don't the buses have CCTV (the modern equivalent of the Atlantean's periscope!).

Maybe the B-line officials were incorrect.

tonyp wrote:I always felt that in principle the Atlanteans could have been low floor on the lower deck with that rear engine. I'm sure there wouldn't have been that many mechanical bits underneath to relocate. But I guess back then nobody was yet thinking that way and portal axles perhaps weren't invented.

The ex Kirklands former UK MCW bodied Leyland Atlantean low bridge dating from 1959, that was at the Bus & Truck Museum in Tempe, had a stepless floor on the lower deck.
There are many examples of Australian bus builders failing to take full advantage of low step chassis they build on. The AEC Swifts that went to various private operators in the early 1980s and even Adelaide's AEC Swift 691s, 760s and Volvo B59s insisted on narrow doors and higher floor than needed. The other is the Custom Coaches Mercedes 0405s that many Sydney private operators ordered with narrow entry and higher stairs than needed. They may as well have ordered the mid engine Volvo B10Ms instead of wasting their time on the 0405. :roll:
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Qantas94Heavy » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:40 pm

Are Neutral Bay and Spit Junction outbound now pick up only? Marshals were telling people at Wynyard (PM peak) to use other buses for Neutral Bay and Spit Junction instead of the B1.

I don't recall this being in any of the documents or notices, but they probably realised that wasn't such a good idea.
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Re: the B-Line experience

Postby Linto63 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:21 pm

Swift wrote:The other is the Custom Coaches Mercedes 0405s that many Sydney private operators ordered with narrow entry and higher stairs than needed.
There were actually both high and low floor versions of the O405, the latter did not become available until the 1990s. There was presumably a time were both were sold simultaneously and price may have been a factor in operators opting for the high floor version.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Swift » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:56 pm

I was referring only to the 0405s with internal steps, not the low entry 0405NH. I was comparing the STA PMC 0405s with the Custom Coaches 0405s. The govvie ones clearly had a lower internal floor and wide entry and exit compared to the privates that came a bit later with "conservative" internal layouts that didn't make the most of this low slung, rear engine chassis.
The old government mark II Leopards were the opposite situation where a normally very high floor type bus with short overhang was modified very successfully to have surprisingly flat floor layout for an underfloor engine bus, along with nice wide entry and exit doors with minimal steps.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby GazzaOak » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:50 am

Qantas94Heavy wrote:Are Neutral Bay and Spit Junction outbound now pick up only? Marshals were telling people at Wynyard (PM peak) to use other buses for Neutral Bay and Spit Junction instead of the B1.

I don't recall this being in any of the documents or notices, but they probably realised that wasn't such a good idea.


Should have been mentioned in documents, but however i think that a good idea for the marshals to tell the netrual bay/spit junction to board other buses.....
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby GazzaOak » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:14 am

From my own experience as a B-line commuter...

Yep, frequent buses are great, but however the timing is a little bit scattered.... (eg there 2 in a row, then not a bus in sight for another 15 mins, but comparably better than the previous L90), so still u need tripview to plan ur timing.

Liked the E88-E89 how its skipped dee why and colloroy (on the way to cbd), sure its all stops to narra, but it's way less people board between mona and narrabeen in comparison to dee why/colloroy (i would say that there are far more people that board in dee why alone than stops between mona and narra).

I would say its an big improvement overall, but there some things that should enhance the B-line

Improvements i would recommend... (or should have been done)
- They also need to have intern selected services 199 to skip the newport loop during the day (or even have the 60 min L90 skipping the newport loop), until they have the B-line to newport (during the times that E88/E89 that isn't running). And probs during the school/peak hours, all 199 should be bendy.

- Remove the T3 lane, and make it fully bus lane between condimine and military/spit rds during peak hours

- With the constriction of the B-line stop and wherever possible, build slip in lanes with the B-line stops (which should have been done, but oh well)

- Find the most congested area (or if parking can be compensated wherever possible, also make that section an extended clearway) during off peaks along the b-line route (such as narrabeen, dee why, mosman shops), and extend the clearway zone around those problem spots (eg make it 6am to 6pm in southbound, 8am to 8pm in southbound on weekdays and 9 to 5 in all directions on weekends).

But overall, i say its a good improvent in general, but i think its will be a whole lot better once rail come to the beaches....

Also just a bit of a joke, i wonder how long will those usb charger last for before they break ha ha...
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby mandonov » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:40 am

Once the expanded variable lane system is complete on Military/Spit Rd the AM T3 lane will become a peak hour bus lane.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:24 pm

Just replying to some earlier comments from "Cremorne" re. the low top deck interior height.

A couple of years ago (or so it seems) I went to BusNSW Bus Show at Olympic Park and first of all went upstairs in the old London RT - the ceiling height on that bus (which is similar to the RM) is a little over 5ft 8 ins which is approximately 1.737 mtrs. The overall height of the post war RT's was either 14ft 3.5ins or 14ft 4ins, depending on what you read and with the comparatively high chassis height the lower low deck had an near enough 6ft interior height.

The Bustech CDI, MAN A95 and the BCI Decker all seemed taller in both decks and these bus achieve this with a lower overall height, thanks to low floor chassis. The production MAN's for TfNSW were going to be built a little taller than the show prototype, according to MAN personnel and the top deck on the prototype was still certainly better than the RT.

I would have regulations would not allow a ceiling height on such buses much below 1.8mtrs = nearly 5 ft 11 ins - so, whilst I have not seen these production B Line buses, your comments do seem questionable.
I was in Singapore a few weeks ago and their MAN A95/Gemilangs are built to the full 4.4 mtrs = good ceiling heights in both decks. A guess the Sydney buses would be 4.3mtrs (same as CDI's) - but all these modern deckers have very good lower deck ceiling height, thanks to the low floor chassis.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Mercedes3035 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:37 pm

So this service has been up and running for the last four days and people are wanting the bus livery changed because it "reinforces gender stereotypes".

Artwork on B-Line buses slammed for ‘reinforcing gender stereotypes’
Sarah Swain, Manly Daily
November 29, 2017 12:00am

ARTWORK on the side of new B-Line buses has been criticised for showing a woman pushing a pram while a man is depicted with a briefcase.

Female community leaders have called the blue designs on the new yellow, double-decker vehicles “lazy” and “short-sighted” after a mother ignited a Facebook debate saying they reinforced gender stereotypes.


A Facebook post that sparked the debate.
The mother had initially posted on Northern Beaches Mums page, saying: “Not including all the timetable changes that sound completely nuts, is anyone else seriously disappointed in the pictures on the B-line buses?

“A woman pushing a pram, a man in a suit with a briefcase ... talk about reinforcing gender stereotypes.

“What message does that send to our kids? Women stay home with kids and men go out to earn the cash? What a shame!”


One of the new B-Line buses in action during peak hour on Monday.
There is also an image of a male surfer and a male and a female jogging together, alongside waves and the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Some mums agreed.

One wrote: “If people see this and see no problem then they, without malice or intent, are part of the problem of gender stereotypes which hurt us all, not just women, but men, too.

“It’s a typical short-sighted design that really signifies there is a lot to work to do to get equity and equality in our society.”

Others said it was “oversensitive nonsense” and “insignificant” and comments were later turned off.


Northern Beaches Deputy Mayor Candy Bingham Picture: Damian Shaw
The mother, who did not want to be named, said she feared the new buses, which were launched this week from Mona Vale to the city, sent the wrong message to children.

While the mum’s comment was met with a fierce Facebook debate, female community leaders said they were disappointed, too.

Northern Beaches Deputy Mayor Candy Bingham said the design was “out of date”.

Cr Bingham said “sometimes we go too far with this nonsense” and later added: “The images certainly aren’t typical of the northern beaches where both men and women do share all work and play activities.”


Northern Beaches councillor Sue Heins. Picture: Adam Yip

Manly MP James Griffin. Picture: Adam Yip
Cr Sue Heins, who set up business group Inspiring Women, called the artwork “lazy.”

“My thoughts immediately are wow, this is the lazy person’s way out, going for standard stock images, of what appears to be the normal family, normal person which is so not characteristic any more of the diverse cultures we live in,” she said.

“I just think it’s pure laziness.

“It’s an opportunity to connect with the community. The fact it’s even coming up on a Facebook group is yet again they’ve really missed the mark on who actually lives in Sydney.”

Manly state MP James Griffin’s office refused to comment on the debate.


B-Line Bus service
A Transport for NSW spokesman, said: “The livery on the new B-Line buses reflects just a small sample of our customers.

“We know that the northern beaches B-Line will be used by a lot of different people, including workers on their daily commute, visitors seeking to enjoy the local beaches and residents who will catch a B-Line to get around town.”

The buses, which run from Mona Vale to the city, were built in Germany and assembled in Malaysia


For those wanting to read the article: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... e8d848de5e

EDIT: Last night I ran a poll on my Instagram story (My followers are all enthusiasts) and the overwhelming majority of participants voted to keep the livery. And Swift, I love the Milo Yiannopoulos reference!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby mandonov » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:03 pm

Flip the genders on half the buses. Problem solved
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby GazzaOak » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:33 pm

Yarn.... who cares, they are just noise that should be shut down by force....

the government should just ignore them... if anyone pander to their demands, y open up an can of worms for these guys
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:38 pm

This stuff about the artwork - sending the wrong message to kids etc., just shows the nonsense that wanders around in some people's mind and just how far some of these idiots want to unreasonably push the "political correctness barrow" - lock the daft woman up!!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby OLYMPIAN » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:11 pm

Tim, you have forgot to mention about the Volgren DD originally for CDC.

They were built at the height of 4391mm and have good headroom on both decks.

The pair now ended up with Thompson's Joyner, Brisbane. And one left as a stock.

Tim Williams wrote:Just replying to some earlier comments from "Cremorne" re. the low top deck interior height.

A couple of years ago (or so it seems) I went to BusNSW Bus Show at Olympic Park and first of all went upstairs in the old London RT - the ceiling height on that bus (which is similar to the RM) is a little over 5ft 8 ins which is approximately 1.737 mtrs. The overall height of the post war RT's was either 14ft 3.5ins or 14ft 4ins, depending on what you read and with the comparatively high chassis height the lower low deck had an near enough 6ft interior height.

The Bustech CDI, MAN A95 and the BCI Decker all seemed taller in both decks and these bus achieve this with a lower overall height, thanks to low floor chassis. The production MAN's for TfNSW were going to be built a little taller than the show prototype, according to MAN personnel and the top deck on the prototype was still certainly better than the RT.

I would have regulations would not allow a ceiling height on such buses much below 1.8mtrs = nearly 5 ft 11 ins - so, whilst I have not seen these production B Line buses, your comments do seem questionable.
I was in Singapore a few weeks ago and their MAN A95/Gemilangs are built to the full 4.4 mtrs = good ceiling heights in both decks. A guess the Sydney buses would be 4.3mtrs (same as CDI's) - but all these modern deckers have very good lower deck ceiling height, thanks to the low floor chassis.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:57 pm

Yes, you are totally correct, the Volgren DD is a magnificent beast, shame it has not sold well. I thought that one prototype was built for TfNSW and finished up with CDC Vic and the other 2 (built in Malaysia??) were purchased by Thompsons, Qld.

So are you saying that there is a third (Malaysian??) one, which remains unsold. Volgren make a very competent product and they do have DD experience in HK and Singapore. It is a pity that their product was not chosen for the B Line service. Similarly I think Bustech CDI's are a great and innovative product too - I presume MAN/Gemilang won on price, although I could be wrong!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:09 pm

GazzaOak wrote:
I say bring into Newport ASAP...


You'll probably be hung, drawn and quartered if the locals catch you.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:12 pm

Qantas94Heavy wrote:Are Neutral Bay and Spit Junction outbound now pick up only? Marshals were telling people at Wynyard (PM peak) to use other buses for Neutral Bay and Spit Junction instead of the B1.



The onboard announcements seem to say 'First stop Manly Vale'
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:14 pm

A very interesting sight today was many grandparents introducing many very littlies to the delights of riding upstairs on a decker - but not much help to the dwell time!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Swift » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 pm

GazzaOak wrote:Yarn.... who cares, they are just noise that should be shut down by force....

the government should just ignore them... if anyone pander to their demands, y open up an can of worms for these guys

Looks like Milo touched down at the right time. :lol:
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby pgt » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:36 pm

Mercedes3035 wrote:So this service has been up and running for the last four days and people are wanting the bus livery changed because it "reinforces gender stereotypes".
I'm surprised that same lot hasn't complained about the blue on the TfNSW livery if that's the case.

But no, you can't have all white either (think about it) and so on...

I am curious as to whether there will be a second B-Line bus (B2, anybody?) and if so, where would it run - but that's for a different thread.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby mandonov » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:09 pm

pgt wrote:I am curious as to whether there will be a second B-Line bus (B2, anybody?) and if so, where would it run - but that's for a different thread.

Either Parramatta or Victoria Rd I suspect.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Linto63 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:16 pm

Swift wrote:The govvie ones clearly had a lower internal floor and wide entry and exit compared to the privates that came a bit later with "conservative" internal layouts that didn't make the most of this low slung, rear engine chassis.
STA O405s only seated 43 vs 51 for a 2 door Customs bodied Busways example, so there was a trade off.

Mercedes3035 wrote:So this service has been up and running for the last four days and people are wanting the bus livery changed because it "reinforces gender stereotypes".
Are these numpties serious? Go and find something that is really wrong in the world and complain about that.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Swift » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:49 pm

Linto63 wrote:
Swift wrote:The govvie ones clearly had a lower internal floor and wide entry and exit compared to the privates that came a bit later with "conservative" internal layouts that didn't make the most of this low slung, rear engine chassis.
STA O405s only seated 43 vs 51 for a 2 door Customs bodied Busways example, so there was a trade off.


Plus they have a longer wheelbase that helps in more seats.
They may as well have increased their seating capacity by two since they are so loath to use the centre door anyway.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:55 pm

I thought by now, someone would have posted some photos of these new MAN's in service!@!!!!
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