Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beaches

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Frosty
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Frosty »

Battery Buses aren't that great at the moment just ask Tfl and the NB4L or Boris Buses mainly battery powered buses with the battery's energy source coming from Regen Braking and backup Diesel Generator those have been pathetic with battery failures left right and centre. Considering London Bus operations are less punishing in comparison to Sydney's let a lone
B-Line a 30km+ route. I just don't see battery buses working if London can't do it than let a lone Sydney sadly saying we are pathetic.
tonyp
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by tonyp »

Frosty wrote:Battery Buses aren't that great at the moment just ask Tfl and the NB4L or Boris Buses mainly battery powered buses with the battery's energy source coming from Regen Braking and backup Diesel Generator those have been pathetic with battery failures left right and centre. Considering London Bus operations are less punishing in comparison to Sydney's let a lone
B-Line a 30km+ route. I just don't see battery buses working if London can't do it than let a lone Sydney sadly saying we are pathetic.
Don't go by what's happening in the UK, the Brits couldn't run a milk raffle in a cow shed. Just keep an eye on how the technology is developing in (continental) Europe and China. Generally it's not quite there yet but it's getting there.

The state of the art for electric buses at the moment is trolleybuses that can also run off wire (now standard) for the heavy duty and artic work and battery buses (up to 12 metres) for lighter duties.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Daniel »

tonyp wrote:Just keep an eye on how the technology is developing in (continental) Europe and China. Generally it's not quite there yet but it's getting there.
Look within Australia! It's our best bet on actually seeing it implemented here.
http://www.swinburne.edu.au/news/latest ... ticket.php
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by simonl »

Great work eddy. There was already a thread split off this thread to discuss hybrid etc but you had to continue the off topic discussion here.

Shame on you.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by eddy »

simonl wrote:Great work eddy. There was already a thread split off this thread to discuss hybrid etc but you had to continue the off topic discussion here.

Shame on you.
Humble apologies :oops:
What about just a diesel trailerbus that would give you a better ride for half the cost :D
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Tonymercury »

It would be nice if there was a way of making individual posters invisible to oneself.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by simonl »

Tonymercury wrote:It would be nice if there was a way of making individual posters invisible to oneself.
There is - the foe function in your control panel.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Rick R »

Eddy has been warned multiple times over the years and was even on probation at one stage for bombarding us with his 'schemes'. There is already a Armchair Operators & Fantasy Networks area where people can let their creative juices flow freely for that kind of stuff.

Maybe it's time for the Admins to put him back on probation if he can't help himself.
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Frosty
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Frosty »

I was thinking the Northern Beaches Region has most of the 70 STAs Volvo 1.5 Door B12BLEA. I'm guessing they'll use less of them once B-Line comes in and the double deckers. My question is if there will be a surplus of the older Volvo B12BLEA 1.5 Door Bendys would make sense to transfer them to other regions of STA or maybe even other operators maybe Hillsbus. I was thinking since the Northern Region of STA wouldnt that many bendy's post B-Line since most bendy services are express services. They could be cascaded to M,K,P depots since at that time the Scania L113TRBs are up for retirement and avoids another order of 18m or 14.5m buses.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Tonymercury »

If a new stop could be installed in Westfield Drive at Eastgardens the 400s would make a good destination for many antics.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by tonyp »

1.5 door artics would be useless in high-turnover inner urban routes because of lack of doors. Better to cascade them to long distance low turnover routes like, er, northern beaches!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Mr OC Benz »

There are still routes that they could be redistributed on the northern beaches without being an issue.
Manly-Dee Why-Mona Vale
Manly-Dee Why-Chatswood
Mona Vale-Avalon-Palm Beach
Routes serving stops between B-Line stops

I would say Manly-Crows Nest-Chatswood, but the route does have quite a high turnover and would be prone to long dwell times as a result using those 1.5 door artics.

The point being though is that a fair whack of them will still be needed. And freeing up all those artics will help to meet demand elsewhere on the northern beaches. Also, the fact that the B-Line service level won't be adequate enough to cover the entire corridor in the peak, express services will still be needed.
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Rick R
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Rick R »

Brookvale's artics are used on routes which have catchment areas away from the main corridor which the B-Line will follow and they operate all stops services outside of the peaks which follow the 'old' corridor through Balgowlah shops, which is a growth area. The B-Line fleet will not have the capacity to enable the conversion of the peak services to feeders with forced transfers to B-Line, so there should be little reduction in artic requirements at V.

Mona Vale's use of artics will depend heavily on whether services like the L85, L88 & L90 will be truncated with forced transfer to B-Line. There should be capacity on these services to allow truncation outside of the peaks with current limited stop services being made express with first/last stops at Narrabeen & Mona Vale during the peak. The L85 could be covered by separating the current 182 into two services to Elanora Heights and Warriewood Valley (157?) and extending the short working 155's from Dee Why to Mona Vale as 155's or 156's. Whether there is a peak saving in artics at Mona Vale would depend on the B-Line's ability to cope with demand between Mona Vale and Dee Why.

Don't forget that Dee Why is undergoing massive redevelopment at the moment and the already heavy patronage at all times of the day will only increase.

The 136 is only half hourly outside of the peaks and is probably due for an increase in frequency due to current loadings and the construction of the hospital at Frenchs Forest, so putting artics on it outside of busy weekends would be counterproductive.

On these busy weekends artics can operate on most routes, so having them laying around outside of the peaks is actually an opportunity not a problem.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Frosty »

Since currently every other region simply is getting more 12.5m buses and 11m buses lately at W due to local geographical reason and etc. Since currently the Western region of STA R,M aren't having much in terms of service upgrades and the southern region of STA until maybe WestConnex more than at least 10 years away with the scope of the progress.
Since there are many routes in certain regions where its getting impractical to have essentially a bus showing up every two mins or so since the demand is so high. For example Green Square and Bondi Beach- Bondi Jn in the summer and the Eastern Beaches.

Northern Region does need new PT so does other regions. Since we also have too deal with the dilemma of the about 40-50 odd Scania L113TRBs that need replacing. The government at the moment isn't interested at new bendys.

Maybe a few bendys will be freed up post SELR but those surplus bendys will be needed elsewhere in the Eastern Region. The area around the Airport, Botany, and up Botany Road, Eastgardens is undergoing redevelopment. Much of the industrial in the East will be gone.

We also have to think double decker buses aren't suitable for the rest of Sydney in particular STA operating regions. Just extend B-Line buses all the way to Avalon, Elanora Heights and Palm Beach have a new service the E90 or B90 replacing the L90/L88.

Ideally we would wanted buses to be freed up post B-Line particularly bendys. Had Hillsbus ordered mostly two door 14.5m instead of mostly or all 1.5 door 14.5m buses there could of been a swap between STA and Hillsbus since those 14.5m buses could be handy.

B-Line essentially is similar to SELR except with buses and it being smaller in project complexity but longer in distance with similar or so objectives.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Tonymercury »

tonyp wrote:1.5 door artics would be useless in high-turnover inner urban routes because of lack of doors. Better to cascade them to long distance low turnover routes like, er, northern beaches!

It'd still be the same number of doors and passengers as on the overcrowded rigid on the 400!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by boronia »

Tonymercury wrote:If a new stop could be installed in Westfield Drive at Eastgardens the 400s would make a good destination for many antics.
I don't think there is any public access from Westfield Drive into the centre.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by GazzaOak »

I think this BRT thing temporary fix, but however northern beaches will require a train line in the future.... but assuming that the nb crowd is a bit stupid, that will not happen in the next century.

I could see L90 being converted to 190, and terminating at Mona Vale during off peak and the 191/192 which terminate in avalon can be extended to mona vale as well. The bendies won't be needed, and the non-bendies in the mona vale depot can be sufficient enough to serve that area. Or another option is to extend the 190 to manly and the 156 can be served by the current L85, or the L85, 182 and 156 can be all gone and can be converted into one route (such as narrabeen - elerona heights - warriewood valley - mona vale - bayview - mccarrs creek)

But for on peak, they could replace the L90 to E90 and have it even quicker than the BRT, such as palm beach, all stops to newport, mona vale, spit junction, netural bay and then onto city. The current E88/9 can also follow the same stopping pattern as the E90. The E85, E86 can also be kept as well for peak hours

Also since STA will have leftover buses, they can make the 136 to every 15 minutes and with a option of having an equivalent to L60 on peak hours
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Forest »

Anyone with questions about the B Line can find out more on Wednesday 16th December at the Manly Vale Community Centre between 6pm and 8pm.
Note that the Sydney Bus Museum Preview Night is on at the same time.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Frosty »

GazzaOak wrote:I think this BRT thing temporary fix, but however northern beaches will require a train line in the future.... but assuming that the nb crowd is a bit stupid, that will not happen in the next century.

I could see L90 being converted to 190, and terminating at Mona Vale during off peak and the 191/192 which terminate in avalon can be extended to mona vale as well. The bendies won't be needed, and the non-bendies in the mona vale depot can be sufficient enough to serve that area. Or another option is to extend the 190 to manly and the 156 can be served by the current L85, or the L85, 182 and 156 can be all gone and can be converted into one route (such as narrabeen - elerona heights - warriewood valley - mona vale - bayview - mccarrs creek)

But for on peak, they could replace the L90 to E90 and have it even quicker than the BRT, such as palm beach, all stops to newport, mona vale, spit junction, netural bay and then onto city. The current E88/9 can also follow the same stopping pattern as the E90. The E85, E86 can also be kept as well for peak hours

Also since STA will have leftover buses, they can make the 136 to every 15 minutes and with a option of having an equivalent to L60 on peak hours
Even faster for the E90 and for palm beach dump spit junction and neutral bay and run them express to the City via the Wakehurst Pkwy and via Roseville similar to Forest except no stops at Roseville rather than Military and Spit Road.

Well than can I say will SELR will be a band-aid solution for the Eastern Subs. The East has more people than the Northern Beaches and I'm pretty sure development & growth is much faster than the Northern Beaches in particular once much of the industrial near the Airport and Port Botany goes. We don't have as bad roads as the Northern Beaches does but nothing faboulous yes maybe ED and Southern Cross Drive put that really serves the South West and the South.

Yes we may have a train line or two but really we have 5 stations ( Mascot which serves new district, Green Square new district, Kings Cross, Edgecliff and BJ). I don't count the Airport stations since they are really for the Airport. There are major areas not served by heavy rail in the East for example Maroubra, Kingsford, Randwick, Coogee, Eastgardens, Botany, Eastlakes/Rosebery, North Bondi, Dover Heights. Much of the South-East will not be served by SELR so maybe BRT is also needed elsewhere in the South- East and other parts of Sydney.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by GazzaOak »

Frosty wrote:Even faster for the E90 and for palm beach dump spit junction and neutral bay and run them express to the City via the Wakehurst Pkwy and via Roseville similar to Forest except no stops at Roseville rather than Military and Spit Road.

Well than can I say will SELR will be a band-aid solution for the Eastern Subs. The East has more people than the Northern Beaches and I'm pretty sure development & growth is much faster than the Northern Beaches in particular once much of the industrial near the Airport and Port Botany goes. We don't have as bad roads as the Northern Beaches does but nothing faboulous yes maybe ED and Southern Cross Drive put that really serves the South West and the South.

Yes we may have a train line or two but really we have 5 stations ( Mascot which serves new district, Green Square new district, Kings Cross, Edgecliff and BJ). I don't count the Airport stations since they are really for the Airport. There are major areas not served by heavy rail in the East for example Maroubra, Kingsford, Randwick, Coogee, Eastgardens, Botany, Eastlakes/Rosebery, North Bondi, Dover Heights. Much of the South-East will not be served by SELR so maybe BRT is also needed elsewhere in the South- East and other parts of Sydney.
Yeah, diverting the E90 via wakehurst parkway and simliar route to forest is another good idea...

At least the eastern suburbs have several train stations, but however i think the eastern suburbs need at least another 5 stations plus the light rail system which is the government currently building. Or another option is to do B-lines like northern beaches to these 5 stations
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by simonl »

There was a report that said there would be no advantage to going via the Wakehurst Parkway. Not sure what this is based on but perhaps losing the benefit of the bus lane in peak kills the apparent advantage?
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by GazzaOak »

simonl wrote:There was a report that said there would be no advantage to going via the Wakehurst Parkway. Not sure what this is based on but perhaps losing the benefit of the bus lane in peak kills the apparent advantage?
Ahh, another reason there is that the parkway is not dual lane.... but its generally quicker to use that parkway/roseville route to the city as a whole than mosman route
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by simonl »

Parkway then Roseville Bridge via Warringah Rd? Hmm, I don't think the study was thinking of that. Would also increase pressure to put a HOV lane on Willoughby Rd unless it uses Strathallen Ave.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by Rick R »

Frosty wrote:Even faster for the E90 and for palm beach dump spit junction and neutral bay and run them express to the City via the Wakehurst Pkwy and via Roseville similar to Forest except no stops at Roseville rather than Military and Spit Road.
GazzaOak wrote:Yeah, diverting the E90 via wakehurst parkway and simliar route to forest is another good idea...
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!
simonl wrote:There was a report that said there would be no advantage to going via the Wakehurst Parkway. Not sure what this is based on but perhaps losing the benefit of the bus lane in peak kills the apparent advantage?
Over the decades numerous timing runs have been done over these alternate routes and they repeatedly show NO advantage to operating via Wakehurst Parkway.

The traffic in the Frenchs Forest area is already beyond a joke and there are minimal bus priority measures. Attempts to introduce a simple T2 on Warringah Rd have met fierce resistance from locals and their elected representatives in the past. The new hospital being built there will only make matters worse.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Post by simonl »

I wonder if something indirect like HOV lanes on Eastern Valley Way would help the situation any. Still have political difficulties of course.
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