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Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

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Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby PaulSEO » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:48 pm

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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Swift » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:51 pm

What will this mean basically? Waratah seating and upgraded driving controls and electronic systems to Waratah standards? Led lighting is a given.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Frosty » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:06 pm

It would be interesting see the final product of a properly upgraded Tangara. It would be nice to see maybe the Motors be refurbished and the stairwell design modified a bit albeit not included in the contract.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Bus_fellow » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:37 am

Swift wrote:What will this mean basically? Waratah seating and upgraded driving controls and electronic systems to Waratah standards? Led lighting is a given.


The statement from UGL refers to 'train operation systems, door systems and other customer experience systems'. Since this is super vague and broad, maybe it refers to something the government doesn't want to talk about just yet? The obvious one here would be changes to allow for future one-person-operation of the Tangara fleet, similar to Waratahs..

If the government wanted to get rid of train guards across the network, these modifications (automatic on-board announcements, for example, rather than manual ones) would be needed at some point. This would have to be a longer term plan, however, for once the remaining C sets, K sets and S sets are no longer in service (presumably some time after 2019, when the first of the new intercity fleet is due to be delivered).
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:27 am

Wouldn't the main customer experience desire be forward-facing seats - can we expect that?
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Stu » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:17 am

^ :lol: :lol: :lol: . I agree. That customer experience has been lacking since day 1, at least someone used their brain when the original G sets (now T sets) were introduced with regards to seats.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby PaulSEO » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:28 pm

Non reversible seats, destination indicators that can't be read and a PA that can't be heard.....that was the original Tangara customer experience.

If reversible seats were to be provided, maybe back to the future with S set style flip over seats, which provide a few cms more leg room because of the need to only provide padding on one side of the seat back, compared to the M and A set style seats, where the padding is on both sides.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby boronia » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:51 pm

tonyp wrote:Wouldn't the main customer experience desire be forward-facing seats - can we expect that?

Facing backwards is considerably better than facing inwards, which will come with metro's.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby GM » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:51 pm

boronia, I do not like traveling backwards, I know it is better in case of accidents.
When going up the stairs from the rear vestibule, as you enter the saloon, all you can see is a sea of faces staring at you wondering what you are going to do next?
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Swift » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:57 pm

Stu wrote:^ :lol: :lol: :lol: . I agree. That customer experience has been lacking since day 1, at least someone used their brain when the original G sets (now T sets) were introduced with regards to seats.

Probably because fixed seating was judged to be acceptable for journeys of under, say, an hour but not for services beyond the city limits.
I don't know why they didn't retrofit the G set type seats on all suburban Tangaras later on, due to the unpopularity of the fixed ones.
I guess fitting the flip over seats from retired S sets would be considered too retrograde looking unless they got reupholstered in Waratah type fabric perhaps.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Tallewang » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:32 pm

Swift wrote:
Stu wrote:^ :lol: :lol: :lol: . I agree. That customer experience has been lacking since day 1, at least someone used their brain when the original G sets (now T sets) were introduced with regards to seats.

Probably because fixed seating was judged to be acceptable for journeys of under, say, an hour but not for services beyond the city limits.
I don't know why they didn't retrofit the G set type seats on all suburban Tangaras later on, due to the unpopularity of the fixed ones.
I guess fitting the flip over seats from retired S sets would be considered too retrograde looking unless they got reupholstered in Waratah type fabric perhaps.


If people find it to be disturbing, I don't see why the duration of the trip has much to do with it. If people don't like facing backwards, then they won't like it, even for a short time.

I don't think the flip-over seats on the G-sets were reintroduced because the G-sets were intended for longer journeys. They were introduced because the Tangara seats were very unpopular.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby matthewg » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:38 pm

Parts for the train management computers and the traction modules are probably starting to get hard to get. They will replace those. If the DC traction motors are otherwise serviceable, there would be little to gain in replacing them with AC motors, just get new DC drive electronics.
Much of the rest probably will be cosmetic. Replacing fixed with reversible seating may be too expensive for the little operational gain. I suspect at this point the important things are operational maintenance issues. Parts that break/wear out that can't easily be sourced anymore. Replace those. If any budget left then things like seats.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby mandonov » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:52 pm

Howard Collins was answering questions today on the Sydney Trains website (http://www.sydneytrains.info/news/directline). When he was asked about the lack of Waratah's on the T4, he mentioned this about the Tangara Upgrade :
We don't need to run Waratahs on the T4 Line as having a dedicated rolling stock gives many advantages. There may be many technical reasons why we cant run Waratahs on the Line but we don't require them and have no plans to in the next few years. We are upgrading the Tangara trains with new doors, digital display screens, CCTV as well as digital voice announcements.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Simes » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:58 pm

Swift wrote:I don't know why they didn't retrofit the G set type seats on all suburban Tangaras later on, due to the unpopularity of the fixed ones.

I believe the G sets have extra bracing in the floor structure to allow for those heavy seats - maybe it would not be required if they had the flip over seats of the latter two trains?
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Punchbowl Tiger Cub » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:21 am

Matthewg summed it up pretty well.Technology catches up with things given their age and the TMS system is one of them.

The TM's are fine and give very few problems - spares are no issue.

So basically,it is some maintenance reliablity issues that are being addressed along with some cosmetic issues.

In regards to no Waratahs on T4,pretty simple - the high voltage supply is insufficent to cope with what A and M Sets require and until such stage that is addressed,these sets will not venture on T4.Also,given that all A and M Sets are fully committed to existing services and sectors,it will also not change.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Frosty » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:25 am

Punchbowl Tiger Cub wrote:Matthewg summed it up pretty well.Technology catches up with things given their age and the TMS system is one of them.

The TM's are fine and give very few problems - spares are no issue.

So basically,it is some maintenance reliablity issues that are being addressed along with some cosmetic issues.

In regards to no Waratahs on T4,pretty simple - the high voltage supply is insufficent to cope with what A and M Sets require and until such stage that is addressed,these sets will not venture on T4.Also,given that all A and M Sets are fully committed to existing services and sectors,it will also not change.


Can I ask how can OSCARs operate on the T4 I thought it would be possible to have M sets run on T4 since OSCARs I'm guessing consume more power than M sets since they are newer.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Punchbowl Tiger Cub » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:49 am

Ask the technical boffins - there is only so many OSCARs at any given time on T4 - maybe it can cope.The system has problems on other parts of the system at any given time.

I had a K Set lose all power several months ago going over the Harbour Bridge.Limped in to Wynyard and managed to reset everything and got going.Defects got back to me and advised that I had lost power as 2 x A sets were going the opposite way from Wynyard to Milsons Point and had pulled the power.

So what sets are on what sectors will remain for the forseeable future - end of story - take it or leave it.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby user13548 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:18 pm

Punchbowl Tiger Cub wrote:Ask the technical boffins - there is only so many OSCARs at any given time on T4

You hit the nail on the head.
You could run A's and M's on the T4 but maybe only a few per hour. The substations require a certain time to recover after the passage of a train drawing a lot of current. You can send a A set down to cronulla in the off peak or in the middle of the night and it would be fine. In fact they did that when testing the A sets.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Daniel » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:36 pm

Punchbowl Tiger Cub wrote:I had a K Set lose all power several months ago going over the Harbour Bridge.Limped in to Wynyard and managed to reset everything and got going.Defects got back to me and advised that I had lost power as 2 x A sets were going the opposite way from Wynyard to Milsons Point and had pulled the power

This has happened to me on various trains over the last year in particular. On at least 5 occasions now. That explanation has been given to me and it doesn't really seem good enough, especially as that section is one of the more critical on the network.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Swift » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:57 pm

If modern automobiles can manage to be less energy intensive than before, why are buses and trains going backwards to rediculous degrees?
Government authorities need to have a rethink on what they really require with such equipment.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Punchbowl Tiger Cub » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:14 pm

Well we are running a 1500v DC system which in itself has inheritant limitations whilst for example Queensland is running a 25KV AC system.We push it to it's limits expecting outstanding performance but at some point,it can only handle so much.

In terms of power usage,the A Sets draw lots of current and have exceptional performance but have drawbacks like very light on their feet in slippery conditions in acceleration and braking.

Accordingly you have to treat each set regardless of class as all different and always drive to conditions and speed/signal and timetable requirements
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby Swift » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:21 pm

I think the K sets are the best trains Sydney has got. Old school, yet a nice ride and a/c equipped!!
When I caught trains from Eastwood to Epping each night up until last year, an S set turned up one night instead of the usual A set and I was blown away by how quiet and smooth this 1970s train was even compared to the high tech A sets.
They must have felt revolutionary when the public got their first taste of them.
A shame internal temperature was another matter entirely during Summer if you didn't get a window seat!!
Hopper windows made the situation worse.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby matthewg » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:47 pm

Swift wrote:If modern automobiles can manage to be less energy intensive than before, why are buses and trains going backwards to ridiculous degrees?
Government authorities need to have a rethink on what they really require with such equipment.


It's mostly that newer trains have more powerful air-conditioning than previous models. It doesn't help that Sydney siders are apparently too dumb to be deal with 'passenger activated' doors, so we dump a significant portion on the air-conditioning air on the platform each stop.

If you look the full technical specs on the modern trains, usually the traction system IS more efficient than the previous generation, but it's more than offset by the 'enhanced' air-conditioning.

It's probably the same story on buses, the news one have more powerful air-conditioning.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby boronia » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:48 pm

Even back in the days when S sets had sliding windows, there was very little airflow compared with the vertical windows of single deckers.

I used to travel from North Sydney to Campbelltown in S sets that had just come from Lavender Bay sidings after sitting most of the day with windows closed. I had to hold a folded newspaper out the window to try and direct some cooler air inside.
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Re: Tangara upgrade contract awarded to UGL

Postby boronia » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:51 pm

matthewg wrote:
Swift wrote:If modern automobiles can manage to be less energy intensive than before, why are buses and trains going backwards to ridiculous degrees?
Government authorities need to have a rethink on what they really require with such equipment.


It's mostly that newer trains have more powerful air-conditioning than previous models. It doesn't help that Sydney siders are apparently too dumb to be deal with 'passenger activated' doors, so we dump a significant portion on the air-conditioning air on the platform each stop.


I travel a lot on K and T sets, the a/c on these seems more than up to the task. Not sure why they need "more powerful" system on newer cars, there is no major improvement.
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