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Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

mandonov wrote:Park Street will be modified soon to move the westbound bus lane to the lane second from the kerb.

You mean something sensible is happening?

I don't really understand that image. Is north up? Then why is George St one way, I'm not aware that is planned at any stage - perhaps I've missed something?
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby eddy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:42 am

I do not understand why some tram experts here do not say where they stand on allowing vehicles to pass trams when it is the key to the success or failure of trams in George street.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:52 am

eddy wrote:I do not understand why some tram experts here do not say where they stand on allowing vehicles to pass trams when it is the key to the success or failure of trams in George street.

Have you ever been to Melbourne, eddy? There is zero chance of people being ejected from the trams into the traffic flow on George St without some kind of platform.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:28 am

With centre-island platforms like Adelaide (and to be used on CSELR) there is a problem if the doors are accidentally opened on the wrong side of the tram (as they are occasionally):

Image

With side platforms (that can also be used by buses) you don't have that issue, apart from the risk of trams passing the opposite way, which can be solved with a fence:

Image
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby matthewg » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:41 am

tonyp wrote:With centre-island platforms like Adelaide (and to be used on CSELR) there is a problem if the doors are accidentally opened on the wrong side of the tram (as they are occasionally):


On the English Croydon Tramlink, the new Variobahn trams know where they are on the system, so the TMS screen in front of the driver advises them which side to open the doors for the next stop. I do not know if they actually interlock prevent a wrongs side door opening or if it's simply advisory.

Pretty well all modern 'light rail' systems use platforms with fences to separate tram passengers from passing traffic. No one will be stepping off a tram into the path of a car that failed to stop for the tram. Unless the tram driver makes an wrong side door mistake and a passenger steps down onto the road any way.

Where they have built island platforms they often have fences between the tram track and the traffic lane - this both prevents people simply stepping off the low platform and crossing the road, and also protects somewhat against accidental wrong side door activations.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:21 am

tonyp wrote:With side platforms (that can also be used by buses) you don't have that issue, apart from the risk of trams passing the opposite way, which can be solved with a fence:

You can also install a fence with centre platforms. The problem with centre (island) platforms is you can't install unidirectional trams which have more usable floor area per metre.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby eddy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:38 am

While I do really appreciate the feedback guys I am not talking about passengers being hit by cars but the consequences of encouraging vehicles to use George street.

If cars have to stay behind trams at all times people can easily wander across George street between trams rather than having to walk all the way up to the lights on an overcrowded footpath.

Cross traffic will generally have a green light

All doors open at all stops with a long speed hump next to tram stop.

Lots of 1 hour street parking with many places a cab could stop to pick up or drop off.

As a matter of fact I would not even bother with a mall as it is impossible to deliver out of hours as the shops are still closed.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:49 am

eddy wrote:
If cars have to stay behind trams at all times .

I don't understand why you keep saying this eddy. They don't have to stay behind trams, they can keep going even when the tram is stopped. They're in separate lanes from the trams.

The only time they have to stop is when the tram stop is a raised (or flat) section of roadway between the tram line and the footpath and there will be none of these stops on CSELR. Australian Road Rules require vehicles to stop at such tram stops but not where there is an island platform for the tram.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby eddy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:50 am

They may have to change the rule for George street or it will be a huge joke.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:00 pm

I don't know if you appreciate that there's only one stop in the section of George St route shared with motor traffic - at Chinatown. It's a non issue.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby eddy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:12 pm

Humble apologies I checked it out and no traffic is allowed in most of it so no problem except for delivery people when shops are closed.

Hope it doesn't become like the Wollongong mall where you would not want to go at night time since they stopped cars.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:25 pm

Don't need to change the road rules. Put in a zebra or signalised (more likely) crossing.

Give it a rest, eddy!
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby mandonov » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:28 pm

simonl wrote:I don't really understand that image. Is north up? Then why is George St one way, I'm not aware that is planned at any stage - perhaps I've missed something?

The image is of the Pitt and Park intersection changes. North is up.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:52 pm

What is with blocking lane one on Park St at Pitt St and therefore needing a gap in the bus lane at a bad place for crossing it?
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby mandonov » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:01 pm

As that's where the bus stop is, I'm guessing that that lane will cease to become a through lane all together. So in the westbound direction from College to Sussex Street there will be 2 transit lanes, with the southernmost one a bus lane.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:36 pm

mandonov wrote:As that's where the bus stop is, I'm guessing that that lane will cease to become a through lane all together. So in the westbound direction from College to Sussex Street there will be 2 transit lanes, with the southernmost one a bus lane.

Not until George St is closed between Park and Bathurst Sts though. Perhaps that is what the image is referring to.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby mandonov » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:20 pm

The image is from a document on changes happening to Pitt Street. Every month the City of Sydney approves a new round of changes to streets as part of the City Centre Capacity Improvements, hence the signs that are being changed indicated in the diagram. With this intersection in particular, only the southwest corner has had any work done on it and the northwest and southeast corners only have lines on the ground where the extensions will be built. So there's plenty of time before February 1st for it all to be operational.

The plans are usually deliberated on after RMS have started, as CoS doesn't really have a choice. Details on Park Street itself haven't been released yet.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:23 pm

tonyp wrote:the tram stop is a raised (or flat) section of roadway between the tram line and the footpath and there will be none of these stops on CSELR.

Are we spending more money than necessary on stops/having too great a distance between stops, by having platform stops that need to be wired for electricity and comms for the readers. Is this heavy rail thinking again? I'd rather more stops and a cheaper tramway. While it would be a little confusing/slow down embarkation with readers only at some stops and on the vehicle itself, I figure we could cope. If low tech stops are intrinsically unsafe than let's use another type of guided vehicle that can pull into and out of the kerb.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby Daniel » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:57 am

Passenger 57 wrote:
tonyp wrote:the tram stop is a raised (or flat) section of roadway between the tram line and the footpath and there will be none of these stops on CSELR.

Are we spending more money than necessary on stops/having too great a distance between stops, by having platform stops that need to be wired for electricity and comms for the readers. Is this heavy rail thinking again? I'd rather more stops and a cheaper tramway. While it would be a little confusing/slow down embarkation with readers only at some stops and on the vehicle itself, I figure we could cope. If low tech stops are intrinsically unsafe than let's use another type of guided vehicle that can pull into and out of the kerb.

They would be wired for electricity and comms anyway. Lighting, CCTV, Help points, real time info displays, track sensors, the list goes on.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:44 am

Many kerbside bus stops around the world are wired for comms too, notably PIDs.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby simonl » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:43 am

Passenger 57 wrote:Are we spending more money than necessary on stops/having too great a distance between stops, by having platform stops that need to be wired for electricity and comms for the readers. Is this heavy rail thinking again? I'd rather more stops and a cheaper tramway. While it would be a little confusing/slow down embarkation with readers only at some stops and on the vehicle itself, I figure we could cope. If low tech stops are intrinsically unsafe than let's use another type of guided vehicle that can pull into and out of the kerb.

Wouldn't it be awful if rational stop spacings would apply. One of the reasons the PTUA are hated by the bureaucracy I'm sure is their opposition to stop rationalisation, which is needed to speed up the services and make them both more attractive in the majority of cases and cheaper to operate. (The other bugbear being opposition to Melbourne Metro.)

One of the things I find weird about Sydney is the number of people who love limited stops on their trains but hate it on their buses.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby boronia » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:52 pm

Had a walk down George St today.

Despite having been closed for 3 months, the section between Market and King is devoid of any evidence of any work being done.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby mandonov » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:42 pm

If you go to the second floor of the Apple store you can look down on the utility relocations happening near the King Street intersection. Most of the work has been happening on that end, and at night to reduce the impact on Christmas shoppers.

The utility relocation is the hardest part and will take a while.
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby moa999 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:48 pm

I also noted a few weeks ago a small section (hard to see behind banners) where it looked like they were mocking up the ground surfaces proposed.

Utility locations are a big expense without many physical surface changes seeb
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Re: Putting CSELR in George Street Sydney

Postby Swift » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:42 am

Did they find those absolutely pathetic idiots throwing objects at workers of a night from that apartment building on York and Market Sts?
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