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Bustech v CB 80

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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby moa999 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:33 pm

tonyp wrote:So they're still some way low down the design learning curve..


Correct. Or how much of it is battery storage I don't know.
It's inefficient in that it discourages standing pax to go up the back, but it is easier for rear seat pax to get in out versus some of the low floor designs.

Was fairly inefficient in the front section though. Only managed to snap one quick pic unfortunately.
Think this was a Youngman.

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Hangzhou Youngman electric
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby moa999 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:50 pm

Interestingly on a few searches appears that Hong Kong has some Youngman RHD electric buses though look different inside
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:36 pm

Daniel wrote:Most likely. The Scanias seem to have much firmer suspension than competitors. This goes back a few generations too with the L94UBs and L113CRLs having similar traits. Ride a Volvo B7RLE CB80 and you'll find it much more lush in comparison.


I agree with you. But I have to say that MAN chassis is much more comfortable than Volvo in suspension. Maybe MAN chassis is more expensive. In my home country, MAN and Volvo are not rare but Scania and Mercedes-Benz is really hard to see just because we do not have a good road quality so we need good chassis.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:10 pm

Mr OC Benz wrote:I believe lunchbox is talking about the vibrations, not the rattles. In which case the vibrations is from the engine and air-con itself, although the body can still play a role in how much this vibration is minimised. The new 11.1m versions with the different air-con are far better and provide a much more comfortable ride without the vibrations and horrible noise.


I cannot understand what you guys are saying just because I live in Brisbane and most of our buses are Volvo with Volgren??? I never notice our Volvo bus has any unusual vibrations or rattles unless the window glass or air-con duct is broken.
Maybe I should go to Sydney and try some Scania with Bustech.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:38 pm

tonyp wrote:
moa999 wrote:All appeared to be full low floor to centre doors then double step to the rear.

So they're still some way low down the design learning curve.

BYD have done some fully low-floors for the European market (they're forced to, or they won't get in the market), but there are usually little design niggles where they don't get the internal space and functionality right - but they're rapidly getting there as they learn. This then needs to translate to the RHD market and they won't bother as long as the customer standards and expectations are generally so slack (with some exceptions like Singapore, Japan).


Actually the biggest market of BYD BUS is UK so they do have RHD solution. The first problem we faced right now is the UK's bus manufactory Alexander Dennis Limited, or ADL, has not come to Australia while New Zealand has. The ENVIRO 200EV of ADL is based on BYD chassis built in UK has a satisfactory running record in UK. BYD has fully low floor chassis solution as well and can offer RHD bus. We just need a body builder. Maybe Bustech can do that but we have to face the centre exit step issue again. I think the origin of this issue is because Bustech's design was concentrated on single-door bus since UK has a lot of buses like this.
For Chinese bus manufactories, I prefer not welcome them because they use European technologies. Why should we give up Volvo chassis and choose same technologies again from another country? The best solution is to change the requirement which obstruct German bus come into Australian market, such as the stupid limitation of width.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Swift » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:46 pm

Megumi wrote:
I cannot understand what you guys are saying just because I live in Brisbane and most of our buses are Volvo with Volgren??? I never notice our Volvo bus has any unusual vibrations or rattles unless the window glass or air-con duct is broken.
Maybe I should go to Sydney and try some Scania with Bustech.

Be prepared for a shock at the NVH levels. I have ridden a Bustech VST Volvo B7RLE on the north side of Sydney and they are a completely different experience. baby smooth like a luxury coach in comparison.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:29 am

Swift wrote:
Megumi wrote:
I cannot understand what you guys are saying just because I live in Brisbane and most of our buses are Volvo with Volgren??? I never notice our Volvo bus has any unusual vibrations or rattles unless the window glass or air-con duct is broken.
Maybe I should go to Sydney and try some Scania with Bustech.

Be prepared for a shock at the NVH levels. I have ridden a Bustech VST Volvo B7RLE on the north side of Sydney and they are a completely different experience. baby smooth like a luxury coach in comparison.


Thank you and one more question. Why Merceds-Benz bus is not very common in Australia? I remember only the Darwin bus service holds a huge Mecrdeds-Benz fleet. What's the reason? Is there any problem with its reliability? or the cost of maintance? Or any other issue. I always hear about that Merceds-Benz lost the contract and Volvo wins.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby tonyp » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:17 am

Mercedes Benz was at one time the major brand that entered the market here following the demise of the British buses, but I think since then other strong competitors like Volvo have emerged, so the numbers of MB orders have proportionally reduced.

I don't know what country you are from Megumi but I can think of some Central European countries that have roads as bad as many in Australia, plus city streets with cobblestones as well, which challenges any bus! I had a direct opportunity for comparison after living in Pilsen, Czech Republic for several months in 2012 and then coming back to Australia. The buses in Pilsen (and Prague) were then fully low-floor Ivecos and SOR (I'm not sure which chassis SOR uses) and these were very comfortable and smooth on rough roads, in spite of the conventional wisdom that a low-floor with smaller wheels is not supposed to ride as well as a high-floor bus. Perhaps the rear-mounted vertical engine created some sort of different weight balance that helps the situation compared to an underfloor engine bus, not to mention reduced NVH?

When we came back to Australia, the first ride was on MANs in Wollongong (which actually has good-condition roads) and the poorer-quality ride was immediately obvious. Since then I have ridden a lot of Bustech and Custom Volvos and Scanias and the crashing ride has been just as terrible on either. The Volgren-bodied versions of these in Perth seem to ride better but the roads in Perth are much better so it's not a proper comparison. Where I live in Shoalhaven the roads are terrible and the 30 km bus trip to Jervis Bay and St Georges Basin in a CB80 will permanently re-arrange your internal organs and ensure ongoing income for your chiropractor. Yet recently Nowra Coaches has taken delivery of a new fleet of Volgren/Scania artics and, although I have yet to have an oppoortunity to ride them, my daughter who does tells me that they have a much smoother ride than the Volvo artics they replaced.

In general, the suspension-tuning of bus chassis purchased for Australia doesn't seem to attain the levels of quality they have in Europe. Perhaps there's something wrong in the specification and selection process here - or just the typical disregard in the local industry for the passenger experience, as opposed to the experience that the bus-owner's drivers, mechanics and accountants enjoy.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Swift » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 pm

^ Yes, my impression is that bus companies are mostly concerned with their internal interests way above providing a quality service to the community.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:47 am

tonyp wrote:Mercedes Benz was at one time the major brand that entered the market here following the demise of the British buses, but I think since then other strong competitors like Volvo have emerged, so the numbers of MB orders have proportionally reduced.

I don't know what country you are from Megumi but I can think of some Central European countries that have roads as bad as many in Australia, plus city streets with cobblestones as well, which challenges any bus! I had a direct opportunity for comparison after living in Pilsen, Czech Republic for several months in 2012 and then coming back to Australia. The buses in Pilsen (and Prague) were then fully low-floor Ivecos and SOR (I'm not sure which chassis SOR uses) and these were very comfortable and smooth on rough roads, in spite of the conventional wisdom that a low-floor with smaller wheels is not supposed to ride as well as a high-floor bus. Perhaps the rear-mounted vertical engine created some sort of different weight balance that helps the situation compared to an underfloor engine bus, not to mention reduced NVH?

When we came back to Australia, the first ride was on MANs in Wollongong (which actually has good-condition roads) and the poorer-quality ride was immediately obvious. Since then I have ridden a lot of Bustech and Custom Volvos and Scanias and the crashing ride has been just as terrible on either. The Volgren-bodied versions of these in Perth seem to ride better but the roads in Perth are much better so it's not a proper comparison. Where I live in Shoalhaven the roads are terrible and the 30 km bus trip to Jervis Bay and St Georges Basin in a CB80 will permanently re-arrange your internal organs and ensure ongoing income for your chiropractor. Yet recently Nowra Coaches has taken delivery of a new fleet of Volgren/Scania artics and, although I have yet to have an oppoortunity to ride them, my daughter who does tells me that they have a much smoother ride than the Volvo artics they replaced.

In general, the suspension-tuning of bus chassis purchased for Australia doesn't seem to attain the levels of quality they have in Europe. Perhaps there's something wrong in the specification and selection process here - or just the typical disregard in the local industry for the passenger experience, as opposed to the experience that the bus-owner's drivers, mechanics and accountants enjoy.


Thank you for you detailed explanation. What do you think of Bonluck and Yutong? I notice their sales recorde are pretty good as Chinese companies. I never have a ridden with Yutong or Bonluck in Australia. The only time I took Yutong was in China and the experience was not bad. The Cummins engine was noisy but the manual gearbox was not bad. Maybe that driver had good driving skills. So what's your opinion about such these Chinese bus manufactures?
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby tonyp » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:12 am

Megumi wrote:
Thank you for you detailed explanation. What do you think of Bonluck and Yutong? I notice their sales recorde are pretty good as Chinese companies. I never have a ridden with Yutong or Bonluck in Australia. The only time I took Yutong was in China and the experience was not bad. The Cummins engine was noisy but the manual gearbox was not bad. Maybe that driver had good driving skills. So what's your opinion about such these Chinese bus manufactures?

I'm sorry to say that I haven't been to China since the 1980s and I haven't come across a Bonluck or Yutong in Australia. The only modern Chinese bus chassis I have ridden is BYD, but on good roads where it is fine. The problem with BYD electric buses so far seems to me that they try to squeeze in so many batteries so that they can claim to have the world's longest range, but this comes at the cost of the quality of the passenger accommodation. The starting point for a good electric bus design is that you shouldn't have to made any compromise on the functionality of the basic design.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Swift » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:00 am

That's where a trolley battery hybrid comes in Mr P.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Frosty » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:46 am

Well eventually the battery technology will improve so BYD and others have increased range & not have to compromise passenger accommodation. What I find annoying about Chinese bus makers is there naming of buses its like they decided to make a vin code the model name i.e. Yutong ZK6129HCA.

Has anybody ridden on the MAN A95 Gemilang's, how is the ride on them ?

MB has faded away in terms of orders since large bus operators mainly order Volvo's or Scania's. I feel like the Bustech's when travelling along Anzac Parade are quite painful but with the CB80s all the bumps along Anzac Parade I've seen interior panels come loose as a result. Maybe every bus should be tested along Anzac Parade through Kensington & Kingsford to test passenger comfort.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby burrumbus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:23 am

Yes,I've had a single ride on a MANA95/Gemilang.The ride quality is reasonably good.The driver of the bus was very skilled and gentle,though.Hope that helps Frosty.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby tonyp » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:11 am

burrumbus wrote:Yes,I've had a single ride on a MANA95/Gemilang.The ride quality is reasonably good.The driver of the bus was very skilled and gentle,though.Hope that helps Frosty.


Is this the buses on the B Line? The ride is ok, the sickening centre-of-gravity lurch if driven too fast into a bend is not!

ABC has done a typical driver/mechanic-focussed review:

https://www.busnews.com.au/bus-reviews/ ... milang-a95

Re electric buses, ABC has just featured this piece from Bloomberg:

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... ars-report

Still no sign of those Bustech electrics in Adelaide on the road. It's gone very quiet.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby burrumbus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:25 am

Yes on the B-Line Tony.The ride quality depends on the driver quality.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Swift » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:45 pm

tonyp wrote:
Still no sign of those Bustech electrics in Adelaide on the road. It's gone very quiet.

Honestly, the bus industry is as secretive as the CIA in Aust. So much touchiness and sensitivity when it comes to something that challenges the status quo, and that isn't just from industry insiders. :roll:
Yes on the B-Line Tony.The ride quality depends on the driver quality
.
Just look who was charged with running it, it should come as no surprise that YMMV in that regard.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby busrider » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:51 pm

Coincidentally, one of the two electric Bustechs in Adelaide was out doing a bit of a test run today. Despite being almost a year old now, they're still yet to enter service.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby bussie » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:17 am

Frosty wrote:Well eventually the battery technology will improve so BYD and others have increased range & not have to compromise passenger accommodation. What I find annoying about Chinese bus makers is there naming of buses its like they decided to make a vin code the model name i.e. Yutong ZK6129HCA.

In a Chinese model code, eg ABC6123XYZ,
ABC - Manufacturer code, can be 2 or 3 alphabets
6 - Bus (1 for Cars, 5 for Vans)
12 - Length
(For length less than 10m, the two digits refer to the length correct to nearest 0.1m, for length more than 10m, the two digits refer to the length correct to the nearest metre, so ZK6938H refers to a 9.3m bus, whereas ZK6125HG refers to a 12m bus)
3XYZ - Variant Code.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby neilrex » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:46 am

I've been on dozens of buses in China recently.

They are pretty similar to the Australian ones, the ride depends mostly on the competence of the driver, mostly.

Chinese buses tend to rattle a lot less than the Australian ones, particularly the ones with those gotham arches near the front, they are ridiculous.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Swift » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:34 pm

neilrex wrote:.

Chinese buses tend to rattle a lot less than the Australian ones, particularly the ones with those gotham arches near the front, they are ridiculous.

Are you talking about those metal arches with holes in them, toward the front of the bus in a Bustech? Just want to clarify. It does seem like a desperate measure for body rigidity, but whatever works I guess.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby tonyp » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Swift wrote:Are you talking about those metal arches with holes in them, toward the front of the bus in a Bustech? Just want to clarify. It does seem like a desperate measure for body rigidity, but whatever works I guess.

Why is Bustech the only local manufacturer that seems to have structural issues so significant that they can't align the window-line with the seats?
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Daniel » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:19 pm

tonyp wrote:
Swift wrote:Are you talking about those metal arches with holes in them, toward the front of the bus in a Bustech? Just want to clarify. It does seem like a desperate measure for body rigidity, but whatever works I guess.

Why is Bustech the only local manufacturer that seems to have structural issues so significant that they can't align the window-line with the seats?

We have been over and over this like a broken record. The design is to reduce glass area to improve a/c performance and reduce weight. It is not a “structural issue”.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby tonyp » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:35 pm

Daniel wrote:We have been over and over this like a broken record. The design is to reduce glass area to improve a/c performance and reduce weight. It is not a “structural issue”.

It's the first time you've connected those two points together though Daniel. So now I understand. However the poor design consequences outweigh the gains from this. I guess aircon is a more important issue in Queensland, so I can see where that comes from, but they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: Bustech v CB 80

Postby Megumi » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:42 pm

tonyp wrote:
Daniel wrote:We have been over and over this like a broken record. The design is to reduce glass area to improve a/c performance and reduce weight. It is not a “structural issue”.

It's the first time you've connected those two points together though Daniel. So now I understand. However the poor design consequences outweigh the gains from this. I guess aircon is a more important issue in Queensland, so I can see where that comes from, but they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.


Yes you are right. The Bustech comes from a hot city, Gold Coast. However, Brisbane Transport seems never buying a bustech.
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