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New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby MotorOmnibus8562 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:26 am

Heard it might be in Australia in August, I believe it will land In Newcastle first and arrive in Sydney in September
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby mandonov » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:28 pm

Most stations on the CCN that can fit it now have 10 and 6 car markers painted on the platform, ready for the new trains.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:02 am

Was told by a staff member that some the NIF's will be the front carriages, not the rear carriages if they're too long for platforms.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:57 am

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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:37 am

Admin - No need to quote previous post.
I’m not even surprised. It just seems to be the flavour of the day in NSW Transport, running late. I guess the upside of this is we get V Sets for a bit longer.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:24 am

J_Busworth wrote:I’m not even surprised. It just seems to be the flavour of the day in NSW Transport, running late. I guess the upside of this is we get V Sets for a bit longer.

You mean some of you are lucky enough to get V sets. On the south coast we only get the church pews on wheels. What's the bet the NIFs won't be as comfortable as the V sets?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Linto63 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:28 pm

tonyp wrote:
J_Busworth wrote:On the south coast we only get the church pews on wheels.
But the OSCARs with their superior acceleration and deceleration are quicker and with more doors, have less dwell time which I'm sure I read here is very important as apparently "speed is everything". :D
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:03 pm

Whatever performance the Hs have is not being put to use on the south coast. Yes journey time is everything but the corollary of that is that if the journey is going to be very slow, then you need a higher level of seating comfort. If the journey is fast the quality of seating becomes less significant in proportion to the shortness of the journey time. The H seats are good for an hour at the most. The V sets up to two or three hours.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby BroadGauge » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:23 pm

I'd rather travel on the H sets that run the South Coast service over the Endeavours we get on the Southern Highlands line simply because they don't make endless squeaking noises and don't break down as often.

Although there are some pluses of the Endeavours - better wind/noise insulation from the outdoors, the toilet is never that far away and they actually have power points inside them, if you know where to sit ;)
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:30 pm

The Endeavours have the same seats as the Hs though, which must be a challenge on the south line, but not an issue on the Bomaderry run. The main thing I don't like about them is that faint whiff of diesel exhaust that permeates the train, leaving you wondering if it has some health effect. I am fascinated to see what will be regarded by the railways as comfortable long journey seating on the NIFs when they arrive.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:49 pm

tonyp wrote:The Endeavours have the same seats as the Hs though, which must be a challenge on the south line, but not an issue on the Bomaderry run. The main thing I don't like about them is that faint whiff of diesel exhaust that permeates the train, leaving you wondering if it has some health effect. I am fascinated to see what will be regarded by the railways as comfortable long journey seating on the NIFs when they arrive.
My sister-in-law who lives in Bathurst also commented on how uncomfortable the seats are on the Bathurst Bullet Endeavour for the long trip to Sydney. Her husband will often drive her to Lithgow (about half an hour from their place) to catch the electric V set, which can take longer, but is far more comfort. Speed isn't everything.

As the NIF is introduced, they'd be better off using the Explorers for the Bullet, or even upgrading the Endeavours to the same standard.
Last edited by Transtopic on Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby BroadGauge » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:54 pm

tonyp wrote:The Endeavours have the same seats as the Hs though, which must be a challenge on the south line, but not an issue on the Bomaderry run.

As much as they looked tatty by the end of it, I do miss the old unidirectional seats the Endeavours had prior to refurbishment. At least they were quite comfortable!

Image
(Not my photo - taken from another site)

I'd still rather a V set though.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:32 am

BroadGauge wrote:As much as they looked tatty by the end of it, I do miss the old unidirectional seats the Endeavours had prior to refurbishment. At least they were quite comfortable!


I forgot that they used to have fixed seating, so that was another earlier effort at rear-facing seating that bit the dust! It will probably happen to the NIFs too. They never learn.

Time is everything. I'd rather get to Sydney in 2 hours in an H than 2 3/4 hours in a V set if it came to that choice. I'd allow a V 10 minutes longer as an indulgence, that's all. There seems to be a huge assumption that people have nothing better to do with their lives than spend hours travelling. It used to be an underlying principle of public transport that an operator strived for the quickest possible journey time. I think there's been a huge slide in standards and expectations that, incidentally, only encourages people to use their cars. Look at the drawcard for car users that trains become when they introduce fast journeys - Sydney Metro, Victorian interurbans, Perth trains.

Edit:
Coincidentally today -

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at ... ed24922d84

Page 79:
https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu. ... t-2019.pdf
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Linto63 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:06 pm

tonyp wrote:I forgot that they used to have fixed seating, so that was another earlier effort at rear-facing seating that bit the dust! It will probably happen to the NIFs too.
The Brits who are now running TfNSW have been told, but have shunned the advice as that's not how they do things in the old country.
tonyp wrote:Time is everything.
Doesn't matter how many times you say it, not everybody agrees with you. It's not that people have nothing to do with people having nothing better to with their time than commute, speed vs comfort is an opportunity cost that has been explained here many times. Yet you either cannot or will not acknowledge. :roll:

TfNSW could have introduced red rattlers, S sets or metro trains on the NW Metro and they would have come in droves, it's the service that attracts not the type of rolling stock.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:48 pm

Suggest you read the Melbourne Institute study. Time is critical, no matter how much you say it isn't.

It's not about the rolling stock (except to the extent that certain types are more efficient and productive than other types and those which service journeys that take a long time naturally need to be more comfortable), it's about the journey time. Journey time is the one big competitive gain that public transport can achieve to get people out of their cars. Not comfort - nothing beats the comfort of a private car. You can't win that one.

If there's one initial criticism that I have of that Melbourne study, it's that it falls into the trap of defining journeys by distance (short, medium and long distance) rather than by short, medium and long journey (time). They've made an assumption that a certain distance involves a fixed journey time, ignoring the technology and operational improvements that can shorten the time taken to cover a certain distance. So we have the situation that the 70 km journey from Sydney to Thirroul with five stops takes 1hr17 mins, a long distance journey with a long journey time (we know the geographical constraints), while the 70 km journey from Perth to Mandurah with ten stops takes 51 mins, a long distance journey with a medium distance journey time.

The journey is defined by time, not distance, and comfort is a secondary effect deriving from journey time, not a principal determinant. If the NIF seats turn out to be not so comfortable but they dramatically slash the journey time simultaneously, that may not be such a bad thing. But if they're uncomfortable and the journey time remains long, that's a failure.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:59 pm

Here we go again. Do we really need your opinion that time is everything into every rail thread? It is certainly NOT something that is unanimous.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Transtopic » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:42 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Here we go again. Do we really need your opinion that time is everything into every rail thread? It is certainly NOT something that is unanimous.

Amen to that. tonyp should get back in his box and accept that there are others out there who have equally compelling arguments. He is not the fountain of all wisdom as he likes out to be.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:03 am

I suggest that you all have a good read of the Melbourne Institute report, particularly chapter 4, to see that these conclusions are not coming from me - I'm only the messenger - but are widely understood and supported by professional studies, as well as intuitively understood by commuters. Honestly, I don't see what's controversial about the simple fact that comfort levels are a factor of journey time, not distance. So for example, where the hell are the public complaints about the comfort levels of the metro trains that we were told by the rail enthusiast gurus would be flooding forth? After all, it's a longer distance journey so it must need lots of comfy seats. The fact is that it's the time you spend in the train that determines the level of comfort you need.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Linto63 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:32 am

Think everybody is just bored of you constantly riding your speed is everything hobby horse into every rail thread. The same arguments continue to generate the same replies, so we just have this repetitive ground hog day scenario.

You believe speed is everything, fine, but others clearly don't subscribe to it, and after umpteen attempts of making the case, it is unlikely you are going to come up with the magic bullet that changes the opinion of those who disagree. So maybe it is time to just let it go.

The Melbourne Institute report is only an opinion, that draws conclusions with you agree with, it is not the be all and end all.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:58 am

Linto63 wrote:
The Melbourne Institute report is only an opinion, that draws conclusions with you agree with, it is not the be all and end all.

If you regard a fully researched academic study of the obvious substance of this one as "an opinion" of equal status to the opinion of say an amateur enthusiast, then there's probably no point us discussing the subject further.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Linto63 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:55 am

May be you need to find a higher class of forum frequented by academics and leave the "amateur enthusiasts" (nice little dig there) in our blissful ignorance.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:08 am

tonyp wrote:I suggest that you all have a good read of the Melbourne Institute report, particularly chapter 4, to see that these conclusions are not coming from me - I'm only the messenger - but are widely understood and supported by professional studies, as well as intuitively understood by commuters. Honestly, I don't see what's controversial about the simple fact that comfort levels are a factor of journey time, not distance. So for example, where the hell are the public complaints about the comfort levels of the metro trains that we were told by the rail enthusiast gurus would be flooding forth? After all, it's a longer distance journey so it must need lots of comfy seats. The fact is that it's the time you spend in the train that determines the level of comfort you need.

This relates to Metro and has nothing to do with this thread so no need to repeat this in every thread as well.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby neilrex » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:36 pm

tonyp wrote:
Linto63 wrote:
The Melbourne Institute report is only an opinion, that draws conclusions with you agree with, it is not the be all and end all.

If you regard a fully researched academic study of the obvious substance of this one as "an opinion" of equal status to the opinion of say an amateur enthusiast, then there's probably no point us discussing the subject further.


A lot of academics opinions are worthless, and transport is not an exception.

Just this morning, I was reading an illogical and disorganised article about how western suburbs residents were "forced" to drive to the CBD due to lack of alternative, and was somewhat dismayed to see at the end of that article that it was written by the vice chancellor of a university. If that sort of drivel is the best he can do, no wonder higher education is in trouble.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:26 pm

A lot of academics opinions are worthless, and transport is not an exception.

The academics have probably never used public transport.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Postby tonyp » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:16 pm

As a regular critic of academic work, I agree that a lot of stuff that comes out of universities is flaky but there's still a majority body of good work that you can identify by its sources and methodology. I would place this study in the latter category.
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