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[Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby simonl » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:42 am

Aurora wrote:Eastwood and Blacktown are the big two that I think should be axed from weekday stops.

Both are reasonable size centres which have two way traffic - boardings and alightings.

If anything should be removed it is Epping. You might as well change onto a MQP train at Hornsby on present patterns although this will change soon enough.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby nathan1987 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:49 pm

In regards to the Intercity sets running as 8 and 10 car sets, on the South Coast since all peak and weekend services run to Bondi Jctn they would be 8 cars, and 10 cars used for Newcastle/Blue Mtns services. Also another assumption Oscars will still be required to run off peak 4 car services or even still in service as 8 car sets for some peak services. I guess we will find out once they hit the tracks.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:03 pm

I think all south coast services should terminate at Central so that there's no temptation to dilute them down as a suburban service with inferior trains. Oscars should be absolutely banned from any long distance service on any line. The only possible way suburban stock can be justified on interurban lines is if the 80 km point (Wollongong, Gosford, Springwood) can be reached in an hour from Central and even then they shouldn't be allowed beyond the 80 km.

It's all about attracting people out of cars with comfort and speed.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby nathan1987 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:44 pm

tonyp wrote:I think all south coast services should terminate at Central so that there's no temptation to dilute them down as a suburban service with inferior trains. Oscars should be absolutely banned from any long distance service on any line. The only possible way suburban stock can be justified on interurban lines is if the 80 km point (Wollongong, Gosford, Springwood) can be reached in an hour from Central and even then they shouldn't be allowed beyond the 80 km.

It's all about attracting people out of cars with comfort and speed.


What do you mean "inferior trains" nothing about our trains makes them better than a suburban service to Bondi Jctn. They are all the same, basically you are saying no service should via the shore to the Central Coast/Newcastle as well then. I find the Bondi Jctn service convenient because I commute from Kiama to Martin Place. I have no issue with the Oscars.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:59 pm

nathan1987 wrote:
What do you mean "inferior trains" nothing about our trains makes them better than a suburban service to Bondi Jctn. They are all the same, basically you are saying no service should via the shore to the Central Coast/Newcastle as well then. I find the Bondi Jctn service convenient because I commute from Kiama to Martin Place. I have no issue with the Oscars.

Any services run through to BJ should be with the new interurban sets. The only way you could use Oscars without degrading the quality of the service is if there was a maximum 1 hour journey time from Wollongong to Sydney and not allow them south of Wollongong.

You must be the only person who likes Oscars on long journeys. They're completely unsuited to that role.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:58 am

tonyp wrote:
nathan1987 wrote:


You must be the only person who likes Oscars on long journeys.


In my case they're a vast improvement over a V set!
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:00 am

As the title of this thread is now redundant perhaps a new thread specifically on the "New Intercity Fleet" is required?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:29 am

Tonymercury wrote:
In my case they're a vast improvement over a V set!

Obviously accessibility wasn't considered in the era when the V sets were designed and the new train is intended to combine the qualities of the V set with modern accessibility standards. Let's hope it does on all counts.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Bedford-29 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:31 pm

Looking at Hyundai Rotem emus on google images I`ll wait and see what these new interurbans look like in the flesh not a artist impression.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mubd » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:56 pm



They sure do a nice V-set clone
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby rogf24 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:17 pm

^^ That's a diesel loco-hauled.

Here's an EMU.



Apparently, the Philly trains are having some structural problems. Hopefully that doesn't happen with NIF.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Liamena » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:23 pm

That's a single deck train.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Bjwh86 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:55 am

Seems this would be the first Electric Double Deck train for Hyundai Rotem as the 3 types of DD trains they built were for the american companies that are diesel hauled.

They have only built single deck electrics.


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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Bedford-29 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:49 am

This might be what the new interurbans probably be based on the UZ Rail Ukraine class 675.Pictures from skyscrapercity.com
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UZ Rail Hyundai Rotem Skoda class 675  (2).jpg
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:06 am

Bedford-29 wrote:This might be what the new interurbans probably be based on the UZ Rail Ukraine class 675.Pictures from skyscrapercity.com

They're Skoda double-deck emus, very much inspired by our V sets and typical European low-platform double deckers, For anybody who hasn't been on European double deckers, their internal layout is completely different and in no way adapatable to the Australian environment. Basically the main deck is the lower deck which you enter at. Then there's a two-stage climb to the upper deck at the ends of the carriage. In the Australian trains with the high platform you enter at the middle level and then either go down to the lower deck or up to the upper deck. American ones are generally similar to the European ones. You couldn't adapt either to Australian operation without basically gutting the interior and starting all over again - and changing the exterior as well.

I don't know where the notion of being able to buy off-the-shelf came from, but I recall a John Dunn article some years ago where he explored how these overseas models could be adapted. John and Gladys talked together a lot when she was in opposition, I think he was one of her constituents.

The Hyundai Rotem ones are going to be bespoke for Sydney and hopefully well-guided by Australian input so that no mistakes are made. I think the structural problems with some of the American ones are due to local assembly and sourcing of parts from USA.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby rogf24 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:42 am

This seems to be a typical European low-floor double decker.

The funny thing is that the typical European low-floor double deckers are 4.6 metres tall but North American low-floor double deckers are 4.8 metres tall, I wonder why there is such a height discrepancy.

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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:52 am

Presumably America has a more liberal loading gauge than Europe.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:11 am

rogf24 wrote:This seems to be a typical European low-floor double decker.

The funny thing is that the typical European low-floor double deckers are 4.6 metres tall but North American low-floor double deckers are 4.8 metres tall, I wonder why there is such a height discrepancy.


Smaller structure gauge in Europe than in USA. USA structure gauge is huge, even bigger than Australia's. The kinematic envelope in Europe constricts the upper deck of double deckers, you can see the heavy tumblehome in the photos. It means that top deck seating is usually 2+1 rather than 2+2.

For the British it was even worse and they only made one attempt at a double decker and it had to be the compartment type:

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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Frosty » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:23 pm

Well I call that design the let's just slightly modify the standard British Mk1 Slam Door stock even though Southern Railway was before BR. Hence why it failed. The British could try our double deck trains just modify one of our double deckers similar to what Melbourne did.

My design would be keep the shell of the OSCAR train but have a European Style interior.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby user13548 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:45 pm

Frosty wrote:Well I call that design the let's just slightly modify the standard British Mk1 Slam Door stock even though Southern Railway was before BR. Hence why it failed. The British could try our double deck trains just modify one of our double deckers similar to what Melbourne did.

LOL, well you have obviously never been to the Southern railway area. I would not surprise me if the loading gauge on the current area of the old Southern Railway is smaller than the tunnels on the NWRL. Try fitting a Melbourne modified DD train into the metro tunnels.

Yes, I have travelled in the 4DD, only two were ever built ( 4001 & 4002, MBS & TS )
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby gregrudd » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:07 pm

mubd wrote:

They sure do a nice V-set clone


That's because John Dunn had a hand in the design of these cars! ;-)
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Liamena » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:15 am

Plenty of double deck trains in the Netherlands have the same doors and stairs format as existing NSW trains have.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Route243 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:39 pm

On Saturday (03 Sep 2016) I spoke to a lady who works for Transport for NSW with regard to the reduced cap on the new trains.

A main reason is that by law trains need to be more accessible. This is in a similar manner to why all nrw buses need to be low floored.

Although the V Sets have a lot of seating capacity, they are not really suitable for mobility impaired especially wheelchair bound.

She also said that most of the capacity issues occur as the trains get closer to the city (where the suburbans run). On this most of those people would be better off getting a suburban train and get a seat.

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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:39 am

Route243 wrote:On Saturday (03 Sep 2016) I spoke to a lady who works for Transport for NSW with regard to the reduced cap on the new trains.

A main reason is that by law trains need to be more accessible. This is in a similar manner to why all nrw buses need to be low floored.

Although the V Sets have a lot of seating capacity, they are not really suitable for mobility impaired especially wheelchair bound.

She also said that most of the capacity issues occur as the trains get closer to the city (where the suburbans run). On this most of those people would be better off getting a suburban train and get a seat.

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I hope that you had the good sense to push the flush button after you were fed that?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:04 am

Tonymercury wrote:
I hope that you had the good sense to push the flush button after you were fed that?

I've had the opportunity to talk to a couple of "customer relationship" people in TfNSW. Lovely, friendly people, but the conversation is like a scene out of Alice in Wonderland.
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