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[Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:55 pm

You should rarely trust an artistic render to be 100% accurate, especially ones as generic and rushed as the ones they put out.

Best to wait for more concrete details and designs that will come out in the run up to 2019.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Transtopic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:57 pm

rogf24 wrote:I can't see Epping being skipped in any scenario. It's Sydney's third or second (depending on how you measure it) largest economic hub so there are a lot of jobs there. The Sydney Metro will mean that you will need to take three trains to get to Macquarie Park if you skip Epping. That's unacceptable for access to Sydney's third or second largest economic hub.

I presume that you're referring to Macquarie Park as Sydney's second or third largest economic hub, not Epping. Contrary to popular belief, Eastwood is actually a much larger retail/commercial centre than Epping and an interchange for the Victoria Rd corridor to the CBD through Ryde, as well as to Parramatta, Silverwater and Auburn. One reason why more CCN services stop at Eastwood is because of the downgrading of peak hour services after the opening of the ECRL. Prior to the ECRL, Eastwood had 8tph suburban services in the peak, 4 of which were semi-express to the CBD, and this was halved to 4tph (all stations) because the previous Upper Northern Line services were redirected via the North Shore. There had also been some limited CCN services. Because of the resultant overcrowding on the Lower Northern Line via Strathfield, 2 additional morning peak hour services have recently been introduced from Epping to Central (nothing in the evening peak). But it's still not enough when you consider the rapid expansion of residential high density development along the Epping to Strathfield corridor. Eastwood is the elephant in the room, where unlike Epping, large scale redevelopment hasn't even started yet.

Having said that, I have to confess that I do occasionally catch the CCN Intercity trains from Eastwood to Central and return and I acknowledge that overcrowding is an issue, particularly for CCN passengers on the outbound journey from Central, until they reach Hornsby. Perhaps the solution is to reintroduce pickup and set down restrictions at Hornsby, Epping and Eastwood, although it is difficult to police. At the end of the day, it is probably more likely that Epping would be retained as a stop for CCN services because of its connection with the Sydney Metro link through to Macquarie Park and Eastwood will miss out. But then again, if the light rail link between Macquarie Park and Parramatta via Eastwood is revived (it's unlikely to be via Epping), it's a whole new ball game.

On another note, I think it is a positive outcome that there will be more comfortable 2+2 seating, similar to the V sets, even though there will be an overall reduction in seating capacity for a standard 160m 8 car train. I'd still like to know if there is actually any prospect of a longer train to mirror the V sets 8 car consist. BTW, what is the seating capacity of an 8 car V set compared with the Oscar?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:55 am

Transtopic wrote:On another note, I think it is a positive outcome that there will be more comfortable 2+2 seating, similar to the V sets, even though there will be an overall reduction in seating capacity for a standard 160m 8 car train. I'd still like to know if there is actually any prospect of a longer train to mirror the V sets 8 car consist. BTW, what is the seating capacity of an 8 car V set compared with the Oscar?

Work it out:

V sets - motor car 88-96 seats, trailer car 92-122 seats

Oscar - control trailer 102 seats, motor carriage 118, motor carriage with toilet 110

New trains - about 80 seats per car

I think with these new trains they'll have to discourage suburban riders by bringing back the practice of fining people if they alight at a suburban station.
Last edited by tonyp on Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:57 am

tonyp wrote:
I think with these new trains they'll have to discourage suburban riders by bringing back the practice of fining people if they alight at a suburban station.


Something probably now impossible to police - not that it was done very well before.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:00 am

Route243 wrote:So in short Alex on the Bus suggests that there will be two variants of 20 and 24 metres. Personally I can't see this this would be a first for a train class. However I would like confirmation either way.



Did you read the exact wording of the TfNSW quote from the Illawarra Mercury?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby blind bus spotter » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:47 am

Morning all
A question I have is, if the government is ordering 500 carriages to replace the current intercity fleet, why, wouldn't they decide to order say another 100 or 200 carriages and make that in a diesel variant?
This, would be able to replace the current endevaour fleet and, with possible modifications also possibly replace the current explorer fleet. Though, I am not sure operationally what the differences would have to be to fix up the regional New South Wales training in terms of catering facilities and all crewing arrangements but, one could argue if you were going to do the job, maybe, it would be better if you do it In One foul swoop with, or parts been into changeable across both the diesel and electric fleets.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:11 am

blind bus spotter wrote:Morning all
A question I have is, if the government is ordering 500 carriages to replace the current intercity fleet, why, wouldn't they decide to order say another 100 or 200 carriages and make that in a diesel variant?
This, would be able to replace the current endevaour fleet and, with possible modifications also possibly replace the current explorer fleet. Though, I am not sure operationally what the differences would have to be to fix up the regional New South Wales training in terms of catering facilities and all crewing arrangements but, one could argue if you were going to do the job, maybe, it would be better if you do it In One foul swoop with, or parts been into changeable across both the diesel and electric fleets.

Or extend the wires to Nowra, Goulburn, Bathurst, Dungog and Murrurundi.

The other approach is having push-pull trains with loco changes at the end of the wires but can't see that happening in "modern" NSW.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Alex on the Bus » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:29 am

Right, for those confused about the "differing lengths" comment, I was referring to this:
Transport for NSW wrote:The four consortia will be asked to consider different options for seating configuration, bike storage, luggage racks and the possibility of Wi Fi and a premium carriage. The consortia will also be asked to design a longer train and a shorter train configuration to support travel on different lines along the network.


I read "longer train" as being a design using similar dimensions to the V-sets (~ 24 metres long x 2.9 metres wide), while "shorter train" would mean a design based on the Sydney Trains fleet (~ 20 metres long x 3.05 metres wide). Unless there is a plan to open up the loading gauge on the Blue Mountains line (or, as was suggested in the wake of the introduction of the Bathurst Bullet, drop electric services past Mt Victoria), or the design selected is basically 20 metres x 2.9 metres (the old Melbourne 4D train), there will need to be two designs required - and the tender said that.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby matthewg » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:14 pm

blind bus spotter wrote:Morning all
A question I have is, if the government is ordering 500 carriages to replace the current intercity fleet, why, wouldn't they decide to order say another 100 or 200 carriages and make that in a diesel variant?

Diesel variant of a double-deck EMU ?. That would be 'interesting'.

Really you would have to go back to a Comeng proposal with the V sets - pick up a 'power van' (locomotive) at the end of electrification and operate as a push-pull.
NSW is more likely simply to abandon the services operated by the diesel railcars than go to bi-mode!.

Depending on the power rating of the train 415v bus line, you probably wouldn't even need to modify the EMUs at all - as long as the 'power car' was MU compatible and could put out enough 'hotel' power. But that means a custom locomotive that can couple to the MUs. Both France (TGV Tracté) and the UK ('Thunderbirds' hauling Pendolinos) tried this. The French finally electrified the line. The UK just cut the direct service and made people change trains. Both services were often cancelled when the EMU and the locomotive refused to play.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby blind bus spotter » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:22 pm

tonyp wrote:
blind bus spotter wrote:Morning all
A question I have is, if the government is ordering 500 carriages to replace the current intercity fleet, why, wouldn't they decide to order say another 100 or 200 carriages and make that in a diesel variant?
This, would be able to replace the current endevaour fleet and, with possible modifications also possibly replace the current explorer fleet. Though, I am not sure operationally what the differences would have to be to fix up the regional New South Wales training in terms of catering facilities and all crewing arrangements but, one could argue if you were going to do the job, maybe, it would be better if you do it In One foul swoop with, or parts been into changeable across both the diesel and electric fleets.

Or extend the wires to Nowra, Goulburn, Bathurst, Dungog and Murrurundi.

"Hi Tonyp Please correct me if I am wrong, it was to my understanding that they will not electrified Mossvale due to the fact that they run doublestack container services for freight. Are they able to place the wires hi enough to allow this?"

The other approach is having push-pull trains with loco changes at the end of the wires but can't see that happening in "modern" NSW.

No, I would agree that would be very unlikely to happen. PS, I do apologise if I have slightly mucked up the quality and style for when I was quoting sections of your post
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby blind bus spotter » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:33 pm

What I was actually thinking was if they were able to incorporate a single deck design in diesel as the same as an electric design in double deck variant that would be good
And a final thought, if the diesel variant was in a four car can figuration, would this allow the services to also replace the XPT fleet by running in and eight Configurations to destinations such as Grafton and casino North Melbourne and Aubrey down south with the ability still to run as a single for car set to places such as Canberra and Armadale?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:55 pm

Just as a matter of interest, the order should be for 520 cars, 65 trains, (not 'more then 500 cars') but I have seen a reference to options for up to another 128 cars, One hopes that the Government does better with these than they did for the Waratahs.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby simonl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:04 pm

tonyp wrote:I think with these new trains they'll have to discourage suburban riders by bringing back the practice of fining people if they alight at a suburban station.

:lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wash your mouth out. You too Transtopic.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:54 pm

blind bus spotter wrote:What I was actually thinking was if they were able to incorporate a single deck design in diesel as the same as an electric design in double deck variant that would be good
And a final thought, if the diesel variant was in a four car can figuration, would this allow the services to also replace the XPT fleet by running in and eight Configurations to destinations such as Grafton and casino North Melbourne and Aubrey down south with the ability still to run as a single for car set to places such as Canberra and Armadale?

At the last election they announced a dedicated XPT replacement.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Transtopic » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:27 pm

simonl wrote:
tonyp wrote:I think with these new trains they'll have to discourage suburban riders by bringing back the practice of fining people if they alight at a suburban station.

:lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wash your mouth out. You too Transtopic.

I wasn't suggesting fining people, but there clearly is a problem which needs to be addressed. I was offering an unbiased opinion which would actually be to my disadvantage. What would you suggest?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby simonl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:28 pm

Run more trains.

The practice actually reduces the efficiency of the system which is already bad enough.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby rogf24 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:36 pm

There is plenty of room to run more trains in and out of Sydney Terminal so the efficiency excuse doesn't stack up.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Transtopic » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:55 pm

simonl wrote:Run more trains.

The practice actually reduces the efficiency of the system which is already bad enough.

I take your point, but as you know there are limited paths available between Strathfield and Central. Until such time as the capacity is increased on this sector (which I know you will agree with instead of giving priority to the metro expansion) there is little prospect of increasing Northern Line services via Strathfield (after the metro conversion of the ECRL) beyond 8tph plus 4-6 CCN Intercity services. An interim solution may be to make all Upper Northern Line suburban services permanent semi-express throughout the day (in both directions), stopping only at Epping, Eastwood, West Ryde and perhaps Rhodes, then Strathfield and Burwood. This would at least offer an attractive alternative with a faster journey and without the need to change at Central to continue into the CBD.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby simonl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:09 pm

rogf24 wrote:There is plenty of room to run more trains in and out of Sydney Terminal so the efficiency excuse doesn't stack up.

Trains and crews cost money. It's not just about the number of paths.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Myrtone » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:42 pm

Sorry, I don't understand how running more trains can reduce the efficiency. Given the problem of freeloaders vandalising trains, reducing crew per train would likely make that problem worse. The only thing that could justify reducing crew per train is staff shortages, this includes running more trains without having enough crew available to have two per train upon increasing services.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Aurora » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:36 am

simonl wrote:Run more trains.

The practice actually reduces the efficiency of the system which is already bad enough.

I say, get rid of the excessive stops first. Eastwood and Blacktown are the big two that I think should be axed from weekday stops. Talk about efficiency, we need to get out of the pattern of InterCity trains stopping every couple of stations in the metrop. (Exceptions to this of course are the very late night services where there are no Suburban services available).

Myrtone, running more trains can increase inefficiency if all you end up doing is spreading the same load. The question needs to be if total patronage and revenue can be boosted to justify more trains.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tonymercury » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:22 am

RGI at -

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/trac ... tract.html

Says 512 cars running as 8 and 10 car trains.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby blind bus spotter » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:36 am

Okay, a possible solution to ease the overcrowding for stations such as Eastwood in Epping would be those passengers aren't allowed to travel in the priority carriages which would be reserved for passengers going further than for example Hornsby the Central Coast and Newcastle.
In terms of accessing those stations via the fast trains, have I done that, yes because it is a quicker service then the all stations. So then, would you somehow impose a financial penalty for passengers wishing to catch the fast train, I don't know just a thought
And then, this comes to a wider issue of accessing all services. For example, you would have to purchase a ticket for the New South Wales regional training services to go to places such as Mosvale however, if you want to go the slow option you can change at Campbelltown for The all station services.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby simonl » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:38 am

Myrtone wrote:Sorry, I don't understand how running more trains can reduce the efficiency.

So you don't understand how higher costs to carry the same number of people reduce the efficiency hey? :lol: :roll: :roll: :lol:

What a joke - like most of your other comments in this thread.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Myrtone » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:41 am

I don't see what it has to do with efficiency. But I did not a problem with the behaviour of many train travellers, and this seems like a reason to oppose a reduction in crew.
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