New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

[Glen]

As I understand it the Lithgow / Bowenfels electrification was originally done for coal haulage - the planned destination was Wallerawang.

Was there not a time back in the past when the DDIU's could not run beyond Mt Victoria and only the U-boats went that far?

The suburban loading gauge was widened during electrification in the 1920's, presumably to fit in 3+2 seating.

I'm guessing when the Blue Mountains and Central Coast lines were electrified it was decided to maintain 2+2 seating.

I see a certain irony that we are now widening the Ten Tunnels to fit in ...... you guessed it, 2+2 seating.

[Linto63]

As I understand it the Lithgow / Bowenfels electrification was originally done for coal haulage - the planned destination was Wallerawang.

That was my understanding.

Was there not a time back in the past when the DDIU's could not run beyond Mt Victoria and only the U-boats went that far?

The Glenbrook Tunnel also required lowering, this was done at about the same time as the Ten Tunnels. The original V sets were confined to Gosford services.

[Glen]

You set me off on some interesting reading............

Wiki says:

When introduced, the V sets operated interurban services from Sydney Central on the Main Northern line to Gosford and on the Main Western line to Mount Victoria. It wasn't until the Ten Tunnels west of Clarence were lowered in 1978 that they were able to operate to Lithgow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSW_TrainLink_V_set

I can remember that work being done.

[Linto63]

Did a bit more digging, Glenbrook tunnel's track was lowered in 1975, the Ten Tunnels in 1978. So the original batch probably did operate through to Mount Victoria.

[jpp42]

The fixed seating configuration is getting some press:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-15/p ... ns/9548928

New inter-city NSW trains will have half of passengers sitting backwards, documents reveal
BY STATE POLITICAL REPORTER LUCY MCNALLY

If you are someone who cannot stand to ride backwards on the train then here is some bad news.

The State Opposition has obtained a document showing hundreds of trains being built overseas will leave half of all passengers facing backwards on long journeys.

Full article: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-15/p ... fmredir=sm

[Newcastle Flyer]

Also in the Herald.

But is Labor asleep or something? I've known that for ages now!

But Labor, & others are forgetting something if it hasn't been mentioned already. That the tunnels were also altered so the V-Sets could fit.

[jpp42]

But Labor, & others are forgetting something if it hasn't been mentioned already. That the tunnels were also altered so the V-Sets could fit.

Yes, and on the subject of "trains are too wide" the Libs aren't managing the story very well - they should be out front in explaining that it will help reduce platform gap issue and improve accessibility and safety. They clearly always knew exactly how wide they wanted the trains and have surprisingly allowed Labor a point on this, where this should be a non-issue.

[tonyp]

Did a bit more digging, Glenbrook tunnel's track was lowered in 1975, the Ten Tunnels in 1978. So the original batch probably did operate through to Mount Victoria.

Tunnels were also modified for the V sets to run to Gosford in 1970.

[tonyp]

The fixed seating configuration is getting some press:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-15/p ... ns/9548928

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/stor ... ns/?cs=300

So far, 87% vote for flipover seats. I can see these being modified in a few years like the XPT. What's the odds the seats won't be as comfortable as the V sets either.

All that work done since the 1920s on trains, trams, buses and ferries to make NSW public transport the most comfortable in Australia slowly being unpicked.

[grog]

It is possible, but I do wonder that with modern 4G hotspots if people may get used to having drop down tables with charge points to use laptops, allowing their commute to become part of their working day, possibly allowing less time in the office for those with more flexible workplaces.

Once people get used to this the removal of tray tables in preference to flip seats may cause complaints.

[lunchbox]

The Illawarra Mercury article (tonyp's post, above) is longer, with some more feedback from Transport for NSW.

It also has a survey as to whether you prefer reversible seating - please vote!

We may yet see the new interurbans with at least some reversible seating. After all, they have two decks!

[Newcastle Flyer]

What's the odds the seats won't be as comfortable as the V sets either.

200%

[Linto63]

Fixed seating is standard on trains around the world, so that an off the peg model is being sought, no real surprise. It's really only NSW that has bucked the trend, come to think of it, the only other train I can recall outside of NSW having reversible seating was the Overland from Melbourne to Adelaide.

[tonyp]

I think our trains picked up the idea from American trains. Do US long-distance trains still have reversible seating?

Bear in mind that there is an expectation in NSW dating back to the 1920s-30s. Once you condition people to a certain level of facility it's risky to change that because you lose customers and worsen the congestion on the roads.

[Nugget]

I think our trains picked up the idea from American trains. Do US long-distance trains still have reversible seating?

Bear in mind that there is an expectation in NSW dating back to the 1920s-30s. Once you condition people to a certain level of facility it's risky to change that because you lose customers and worsen the congestion on the roads.

The older ones do, the newer ones sometimes don't. Also this includes the interurbans like NJT and LIRR.

[BroadGauge]

Did a bit more digging, Glenbrook tunnel's track was lowered in 1975, the Ten Tunnels in 1978. So the original batch probably did operate through to Mount Victoria.

There was an accident that occurred in January 1976 involving a collision between a freight train and a Blue Goose set between Lapstone and Glenbrook, which was operating a service to Mount Victoria.

The information that I have found elsewhere claims that these sets were in service until 1981 prior to being converted to trailer cars, so I assume that they would have also operated to Lithgow between 1978 and 1981.

I think our trains picked up the idea from American trains. Do US long-distance trains still have reversible seating?

The very common Bombardier Bi-Level cars don't have reversible seating, although if you like sitting forwards you can travel on Metra in Chicago which uses galley cars with flip-over seats.

[Glen]

This argument put that "everywhere else has fixed seats" forgets to ask the question "Have we always done this better here in NSW?" and I would say Yes.

[tonyp]

This argument put that "everywhere else has fixed seats" forgets to ask the question "Have we always done this better here in NSW?" and I would say Yes.

Absolutely - since the 1920s/30s, ALL modes (trains, buses, trams and ferries).

[swtt]

But wasn't it a deliberate decision that interurban trains would be country loading gauge and that clearances wouldn't need to be altered? This seemed to work fine until recently when it seems to have been decided to put wider suburban trains along interurban lines.

The decision to build all the EMU's to suburban loading gauge was probably dictated by accessibility guidelines round the gap between the train and the platform. The large gap between the platform and the narrow-bodied stock probably scared someone.
Of course, they could have put movable 'gap filling' steps on the trains as is common overseas.

The tunnels were already modified to take the narrow double-deck stock as the sides went higher than the standard 'country' loading gauge. Now they have to be modified again to take wide-bodied stock.

Most of this hoo-haa is just Daily Terror stuff. What if CityRail/SRA etc etc had always wanted to widen these tunnels but the cash only got stumped up recently due to the boom in Sydney?

[Transtopic]

Let's not forget that the Central Coast and South Coast tunnels were widened/lowered to accommodate the Oscars and there wasn't much of a hoo-ha then. In the case of the Central Coast/Newcastle line, it also enabled the transfer of the new wider suburban stock from Newcastle to Sydney. I suspect that there has been a longstanding plan to do the same through the Blue Mountains, partly completed as far as Springwood. Having a single spec for the new Intercity Trains makes a lot of sense. The government has been tardy though in not being on the front foot and pointing this out. It's all a bit of a beat-up, because it's been public knowledge for months.

On the question of the fixed seating, I wonder if they also canvassed the public's opinion on the longitudinal seating for the new metro trains. In all of the government's initial publicity, the trains had a mix of transverse and longitudinal seats, but without any further consultation, that morphed into the all longitudinal model. They could at least have dividing armrests, which is common in some other jurisdictions.

[Tonymercury]

Most of this hoo-haa is just Daily Terror stuff.

Actually Fairfax

[boronia]

I think it was kick-started by a Blue Mountains Labor MP, and the press picked up on it.

[tonyp]

On the question of the fixed seating, I wonder if they also canvassed the public's opinion on the longitudinal seating for the new metro trains. In all of the government's initial publicity, the trains had a mix of transverse and longitudinal seats, but without any further consultation, that morphed into the all longitudinal model. They could at least have dividing armrests, which is common in some other jurisdictions.

They have had a full-size mockup on public display so no doubt they got plenty of feedback from that. I don't think armrests achive anything and would reduce the flexility of the seats (e.g. people with small kids etc).

[boronia]

We all know how much notice they usually take of feedback. "Your opinion is valued, but we have already made up our mind".

If no armrests, perhaps they should consider individual seat squabs. People otherwise tend to take up more room than is necessary, to claim some "breathing space" around them. How often do you find a parking space big enough for two cars, but someone comes long and parks right in the middle.

[tonyp]

We all know how much notice they usually take of feedback. "Your opinion is valued, but we have already made up our mind".

If no armrests, perhaps they should consider individual seat squabs. People otherwise tend to take up more room than is necessary, to claim some "breathing space" around them. How often do you find a parking space big enough for two cars, but someone comes long and parks right in the middle.

The mock-up does have individual seat squabs. In Perth trains the squabs are joined but there is small ridge between them as part of the ergonomic seat moulds and to sit on this ridge is a litle uncomfortable, so it encourages you to centre yourself on the seat.