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[Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

[Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Daniel » Thu May 08, 2014 8:22 am

Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack
RICK MORTON
THE AUSTRALIAN
MAY 08, 2014 12:00AM


THE NSW government will spend $2.8 billion on 65 inter-city trains, but will not commit to building them in Australia.

Transport Minister Gladys Berejiklian will announce the new fleet today, which will mean all Sydney trains will be air-conditioned.

“Previously, NSW has developed unique and often costly train fleets from scratch, which has taken as long as seven years from start to delivery,” Ms Berejiklian will say. “We are looking at buying off-the-shelf trains with proven technology and then configuring them to meet our customers’ needs, meaning we can ensure the best value, best possible service and also have these new trains on the tracks faster.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... mm-premium


Interesting, on a number of fronts... More to come.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Thu May 08, 2014 8:31 am

Nothing surprising about this. At least finally we have the prospect of some decent interurban rolling stock coming along, after the disaster of the Oscars.

Imported - so what? That's the way it's going internationally. Few countries can support a proper rolling stock industry that includes the R&D and design components. We lost ours when Comeng went. Since then it's been on borrowed time, like the drawn-out agony of the automotive industry played out in miniature.

Before the Libs came to office, John Dunn was giving Gladys a lot of advice on the various overseas models available as a basis for new long-distance stock. No doubt she's had all that in her in-tray since then and finally out it comes.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Daniel » Thu May 08, 2014 8:53 am

Since it refers to making all Sydney trains air conditioned, it may mean that Oscars are to be downgraded and cascaded to suburban running just like the G sets were. Although, the DDA compliance cloud still hangs over the V sets which need to be significantly upgraded or need to go by 2022. I suspect this order could be a mixture of early V set replacement and H set transfers.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Thu May 08, 2014 9:01 am

The report in the print Tele said the Oscars would be cascaded down to suburban running, although they could still be restricted to "outer suburban" runs? It also mentioned delivery from 2019.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Daniel » Thu May 08, 2014 9:29 am

Indeed, I have just been the hardcopy after I wrote my post. Good news for tonyp, his prayers have been answered!
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Thu May 08, 2014 9:37 am

TonyP is not the only one who has suffered the Oscars 8)
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Xplorer » Thu May 08, 2014 9:37 am

heard china has recently produced their own intercity trains (not interurban, not country trains, but just intercity), apparently they can reach 160 (not useful in NSW at all)
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Aurora » Thu May 08, 2014 9:42 am

tonyp wrote:Nothing surprising about this. At least finally we have the prospect of some decent interurban rolling stock coming along, after the disaster of the Oscars.

Disaster? The OSCARs were originally built/designed for outer suburban running and I for one don't mind travelling on them. Not their fault if management decided to begin using them for working all the way to Newcastle/Kiama/Port Kembla.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby iDionz » Thu May 08, 2014 10:05 am

But endeavours and hunters weren't but they got the terrible seating too.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby iDionz » Thu May 08, 2014 10:13 am

I can see H sets being suburban trains they basically are now, they just have the toilets locked. But they need to build more to make all H sets suburban trains and if so the H sets can replace all the K sets seems like a good idea.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby tonyp » Thu May 08, 2014 10:21 am

Aurora wrote:Disaster? The OSCARs were originally built/designed for outer suburban running and I for one don't mind travelling on them. Not their fault if management decided to begin using them for working all the way to Newcastle/Kiama/Port Kembla.

Comfort-wise they're good for about an hour, which would cover pretty much all suburban running.

I appreciate that it was the previous government that took a cheap and easy path with them by using as interurban trains.

As Michael Costa said when the criticism originally started (when the trains were new), "I don't accept the premise that there is a problem with them" (translation: "let the peasants eat cake").

I have seen the original contract which explicitly specified that the trains should have seating of an appropriate comfort level for long-distance journeys. So there's been an arguable breach-of-contract situation, but the purchaser seemed to have no interest in acting on that.

Let's hope the "informed purchaser" is a little more proactive in carrying out their job next time around.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Daniel » Thu May 08, 2014 10:36 am

Sydney, Newcastle, Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Illawarra commuters promised new $3b air-con trains
ABC News

Passengers could be sitting in air-conditioned trains right across the state's rail network within five years time if the New South Wales government delivers on a promise to build a new fleet of intercity commuter trains.

The Transport Minister Gladys Berejiklian has announced $2.8 billion will be spent buying 65 commuter trains to operate between Sydney and Newcastle, the Central Coast, Blue Mountains and the Illawarra.

That means about 520 new carriages.

Ms Berejiklian says the trains means regional customers will have a more comfortable journey.

"These trains will be specifically designed to run on the intercity network," she said.

"That is to travel between Sydney and regional centres like Newcastle, Central Coast, Blue Mountains and the Illawarra.

"These trains are specifically for our customers who travel long distances everyday to get to work in Sydney or to go those long distances.

"Traditionally the Oscar carriages were used for intercity services and I agree with customers, they're really a suburban train.

"They're really suited for Sydney, they're not suited for travelling between Sydney and major hubs and that's why I'm really pleased to be making this huge announcement today.


"By getting these new carriages we'll be able to move some of our different carriages onto the suburban line and retire our old carriages that aren't air-conditioned."

Once completed it will mean every train ride will be in air-conditioned carriages.

The state government will now start working with train manufacturers to identify the best trains to add to new fleet.

"Very shortly, in the next couple of weeks we'll be going to industry to talk to them about what we exactly need, in terms of the customer experience, the type of carriage we're looking for," Ms Berejiklian said.

"Through that sounding process we can actually proceed to order the trains that we want.

The new fleet is expected to be in service within five years.

Build trains in New South Wales, union says

The news has renewed hope for struggling rail manufacturers in the New South Wales Hunter Valley.

Daniel Wallace from the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union is urging the government not to send the bulk of the work overseas, which happened with the state's last major rail contract.

"A $2.8 billion contract for trains in New South Wales is great news, we just need to make sure that they're built here in New South Wales," he said.

"If you look at the last contract where we argued for more local content, we were in the middle of a mining boom, the industry was doing well and they were worried about a skills shortage in the region, those circumstances are not present now.

"We've got the ability to build those trains here in the Hunter and we should be given the opportunity.

"Using taxpayer funds to build those trains we should make sure they're built locally given the economy at the moment, and the amount of job losses in the region."
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Thu May 08, 2014 10:59 am

boronia wrote: It also mentioned delivery from 2019.
And 2019, that's the clue.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boxythingy » Thu May 08, 2014 1:04 pm

SMH article includes a gallery showing some ideas: http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/nsw/ ... tedImage=0

Also no plans for the Southern Highlands Line, bit between Nowra-Kiama, Bathurst-Central services or for NSW TrainLink Regional.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Tallewang » Thu May 08, 2014 1:31 pm

The artists impression of the interior is interesting. Shows large rectangular windows, with one pair of seats per window. He's not a very convincing artist.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boxythingy » Thu May 08, 2014 1:51 pm

I wonder if they will be double or single deckers since fmr Premier Barry O'Farrell called the former "a mistake".
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby user13548 » Thu May 08, 2014 2:00 pm

boxythingy wrote:I wonder if they will be double or single deckers since fmr Premier Barry O'Farrell called the former "a mistake".

All the photos in the press release are double. BOF was referring to suburban stock.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby matthewg » Thu May 08, 2014 3:37 pm

Tallewang wrote:The artists impression of the interior is interesting. Shows large rectangular windows, with one pair of seats per window. He's not a very convincing artist.


They are mostly photos of real trains out of Bombardliers catalogue. In fact I think the only drawings are the two outdoor /station shots of the Swiss 'Twindex' train, where the train has been drawn into a photograph. The interior images are photos of the SNCF train for real.


I've ridden on the SNCF version, not a bad train. But unsuitable as is for NSW as the the train is designed for low level rural French platforms. One coach, in order to have level boarding for wheel chair users, has it's doors on the lower deck. The toilet is also on this lower desk so said disabled train users can access it. This configuration will not work for NSW's high platforms. Most of the train doors are over the bogies as 'normal' with folding steps to allow you to get up into them. Moving the loo would be a major engineering design change. (Leaving the folding steps off would be minor)

And it looks like the Swiss version ALL the doors are on the lower deck.

They still haven't got the idea that there is no such thing as an 'off the self' train.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Route243 » Thu May 08, 2014 4:21 pm

What they could do is use the A set as a platform but with the following modifications:

Slightly lengthened vestibules, including the provision of luggage space.

Doors located at the end of carriages like the current V Sets.

More comfortable and high back seating in 2 X 2 layout like the V sets.

Doing this would save time and ensure commonality with parts.

I definitely think that trains must be 8 car formation like the A sets ie

D Drivers/guard car
N motor trailer with lavatory
N motor trailer with lavatory
T Panto trailer
T Panto trailer
N motor trailer with lavatory
N motor trailer with lavatory
D Drivers/guard car

Probably designate the car numbering with an I prefix for inter city Ie ID, IN, IT

The lavatories will be positioned at the ends adjoining the drivers/guard car an the panto trailer cars.

The reason for 8 car formation is mostly because the current 2 X 4 car coupled set does not allow movement between thee forward 4 cars and the rear four cars. In other words between cars four and five.

This creates a problem in that the rear set is often fuller since they cater for short platforms.

Also if someone is in the forward set who does not know that his/her destination has a short platform may be unwittingly stuck. With a dedicated 8 car formation like the A set he/she has a hope as he/she can move to car 5 without any hassle.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby matthewg » Thu May 08, 2014 4:35 pm

Route243 wrote:What they could do is use the A set as a platform but with the following modifications:


Except that the A set body profile, like that of the H set, is too wide to get to Lithgow.

The V sets are long and narrow.

The moment you start making structural changes like narrowing the body, it isn't a simple change any more. Even moving the doors might be a major redesign as the end roofs carry all the heavy equipment and moving the doors moves all the load bearing structure around.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Route243 » Thu May 08, 2014 4:48 pm

matthewg wrote:
Route243 wrote:What they could do is use the A set as a platform but with the following modifications:


Except that the A set body profile, like that of the H set, is too wide to get to Lithgow.

The V sets are long and narrow.

The moment you start making structural changes like narrowing the body, it isn't a simple change any more. Even moving the doors might be a major redesign as the end roofs carry all the heavy equipment and moving the doors moves all the load bearing structure around.


I did not know that. Please explain for my interest why they are too wide.

Mind you since my previous post, I thought of another mod.

A tilting mechanism.

I think such a thing could enable trains to travel faster in the tight bends in the Blue Mountains and from the 'Berowra Ridge' to the Hawkesbury River and Wondabyne cuttings.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boxythingy » Thu May 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Is there a train anywhere else in the world that would be "100% compatible" with the NSW Trainklink Intercity and Sydney Trains network? There will bound to be some minor changes and extra costs even if they aren't going to build a train from scratch.
Last edited by boxythingy on Thu May 08, 2014 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby captainch » Thu May 08, 2014 5:16 pm

well another nail in the coffin for man things in australia,and the hunter..........................nice sell of the port of newcastle to china and with that money buy chinese trains so they get there money back!
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Route243 » Thu May 08, 2014 5:19 pm

boxythingy wrote:Is there a train anywhere else in the world that would be "100% compatible" with the NSW Trainklink Intercity and Sydney Trains network? There will bound to be some minor changes and extra costs even if they aren't going to build a train from scratch.

Of course there will need to be mods done on any so-called off-the-shelf train they might get. This happens any way in any situation.

Even imported cars have to be modified to meet the ADR
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby ar157 » Thu May 08, 2014 5:31 pm

Tallewang wrote:The artists impression of the interior is interesting. Shows large rectangular windows, with one pair of seats per window. He's not a very convincing artist.

I could be misunderstanding you but as far as i can see, there's 4 seats per window where the seats are back to back (and leg to leg) not that it really matters considering it's an artist's impression and not the real thing. :P
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