Sydney Buses Maps

[Liamena]

Can't think of the last time I used a paper map overseas

You can buy a paper map of any city in china at any newspaper kiosk, and they usually have all of the bus routes on them. I carry a magnifying glass.

[Mr OC Benz]

I was simply making the point that tourists are not a reason for paper maps, I don't see them any different from local residents.

Tourists are very much a reason for paper maps and most transit agencies I've experienced in Europe to go out of their way to produce some very good paper maps and guides specifically for tourists

Especially that even in the event that every tourist happens to have a smartphone, access to wifi is not always guaranteed and it may not be viable or even desirable to pay exorbant global roaming fees or purchase a local SIM card, particularly if you're only in a city/country for a few days. For this reason, i try to make sure I have the city pre-downloaded on maps, but that doesn't give you any access to transit information and is really only useful for orientation.

[rogf24]

With the exception of the USA and Canada where mobile plans are exorbitant, most of the world has very reasonable plans, even you're only in the place for a few days. It won't cost you an arm and a leg to get a local SIM. And a local SIM is not just useful for transport, it can help you find good restaurants, etc.

HERE WeGo Maps offers offline public transport data (Google Maps doesn't).

[Mr OC Benz]

But again, you wouldn't bother unless you were there long enough or could manage without. Very few countries I've been to have data plans which cater for short stay visitors or in other cases have measly 1GB allowance that lasts 30 days. Good to know about those other map options though, I'll check them out.

Local authorities have a responsibility to provide at least the bare basic information anyway. I certainly found it astounding having been across multiple countries and dozens of cities that I end up in Sydney and find that it was more difficult to navigate where English is the first language than somewhere that doesn't even use the Latin alphabet!! Physical maps will always be a powerful resource and will always have a use and demand. In any case, you would want multiple platforms for providing information (offline and online).

[rogf24]

But again, you wouldn't bother unless you were there long enough or could manage without. Very few countries I've been to have data plans which cater for short stay visitors or in other cases have measly 1GB allowance that lasts 30 days. Good to know about those other map options though, I'll check them out.

If it doesn't cater to short stay visitors specifically, you can always get a regular SIM card, as I said, plans are very reasonably priced all over the world. If 1 GB isn't enough (it should be enough for a short visitor though), get a SIM with more data, it'll be slightly more expensive, but again, plans are reasonably priced everywhere. Even in Australia, mobile plans aren't expensive, one of the few things I can say about cost in Australia. Singtel in Singapore has a nice SGD15 short stay tourist SIM that has 100GB of data.

Local authorities have a responsibility to provide at least the bare basic information anyway. I certainly found it astounding having been across multiple countries and dozens of cities that I end up in Sydney and find that it was more difficult to navigate where English is the first language than somewhere that doesn't even use the Latin alphabet!! Physical maps will always be a powerful resource and will always have a use and demand. In any case, you would want multiple platforms for providing information (offline and online).

Well I'm not sure exactly how Sydney Buses region guide paper maps will help with this bare basic information. The region guide maps certainly provide a lot of information and is very detailed but for the average Joe, it's a huge mess and not very legible. Tourists are not here to look at the entire region of routes anyway. Certainly, first world cities and/or tourism oriented cities are easier to navigate. Third world and non-tourist friendly cities are more difficult to navigate.

[moa999]

You can buy a paper map o.

User pays. Fair enough

[runawaybus]

Lets ask ourselves one simple question:

Maps are usually contentious issues whether to print them or not. Overseas cities such as Las Vegas (bus only city) has a timetable book that sells for $US3.00 or a network map with a spread sheet highlighting routes and frequencies for US$1.00. When I purchased in from the Bourneville Transit Center (ie. bus Interchange) I was convinced only to purchase oddly enough the network map because “it highlights everything I need” I pointed out that I would also like to know the times of my service and the journey times and that is why I would like to purchase the book. The person over the counter said “Very well then three dollars sir”.
In all my travels overseas I have seen many cities still produce excellent network maps but in limited quantities and you sometimes have to pay for them. Calgary, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Hong Kong, Vancouver, Banff, Kamloops, Anaheim and these cities sometimes have “Transit Guides” which is a timetable book with network maps in the centre pages.

These cities have excellent websites as well as being able to download maps and timetables so why do they still stock and sell network maps and is Australian becoming too much Internet and Digital Obsessed that is alienating those people who cannot use the Internet because of their age (elderly) disabled etc.

[boronia]

In many places, network maps can be quite large, and are usually A3 or A2 size sheets suitably folded.

I have attempted to download and print out on-line maps, but they have been too low in resolution, or too small to read details in A4 size sheets, to warrant printing them.

[lunchbox]

^^^^^^^^The answer to your "cannot understand", 2MSJ, lies in the posts above it.

[lunchbox]

I thank the contributors above for their support of paper transit maps. Here is a somewhat broader summary of the current state of play in NSW.

1 - I complained to the minister for transport that the availability of Sydney Buses region maps by telephone request to Transport for NSW (TfNSW) had been discontinued. I got the following evasive reply from TfNSW -

"Thank you for your correspondence to the Minister for Transport and Infrastructure about planning your journey on State Transit bus routes. I have been asked to respond to you. I note your comments and appreciate the reasons that prompted you
to write. You may be interested to know network maps are available on the Transport Info website at http://www.transportnsw.info/plan.
The maps can be found under 'routes and timetables' in the 'plan' drop-down menu. You may wish to print a copy of the map for your convenience. Further, real-time transport information is available to customers through a number of apps.
Some of the apps include TripGo, Triptastic, TripView, Moovit and NextThere. With these apps, customers can check where their public transport service is, when it is expected to arrive, view service updates, closest stations, bus stops, wharfs
and routes, accessibility details, and find out where to buy tickets. Customers can also access real-time information using
the trip planner on the Transport Info website. Customers without access to a smartphone or the internet can contact Transport Info on 131 500 for assistance with their transport enquiries. Additionally, paper timetables are available upon request at train stations".

2 - I understand that in about July 2017, TfNSW was developing a "Disability Inclusion Action Plan". Apparently it talks about accessible information.

3 - Last year (2016), there was a NSW Parliamentary inquiry into access to transport, focusing on rural and regional NSW. The final report of this inquiry includes a recommendation that timetable information should be made available in paper format (see page 30-33, recommendations 11 and 12):
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/commi ... %20NSW.pdf

The NSW Government provided a response to the final report, in which they state their support for the recommendations around paper information (see page 14):
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/commi ... People.pdf

I have been advised that "this is a really positive outcome for the campaign and provides you with an even stronger case for change now that it also coincides with Government policy. That being said, ongoing advocacy is generally required to ensure that these recommendations come to fruition".

4 - From "Keep me Posted" - an on-line body advocating for paper documents over electronic communications -

"An international survey of 10,700 consumers was commissioned by Two Sides and carried out by independent research company Toluna in June 2017.

Topics covered included the drive to digital-only communications with findings concluding that consumers trust, enjoy and gain a deeper understanding of information read in print, with signs of digital fatigue and concern for security and privacy evident.

Some of the key findings from the Australian survey included:

86% of Australians believe that consumers should have the right to choose how they receive communications (printed or electronically), at no extra charge, from financial organisations and service providers
75% agreed consumers should not be charged more for choosing a paper bill or statement
69% believe that keeping hard copies at home is the safest and more secure way of storing information".

Edit, 10.10.17 -
Research by the Tourism and Transport Forum (TTF) has found that "64% of travellers prefer to access public transport timetables online, compared to 18% who prefer physical timetables". (Track + Signal magazine, October 2017, p 70)

[Liamena]

With the exception of the USA and Canada where mobile plans are exorbitant, most of the world has very reasonable plans, even you're only in the place for a few days. It won't cost you an arm and a leg to get a local SIM. And a local SIM is not just useful for transport, it can help you find good restaurants, etc.

HERE WeGo Maps offers offline public transport data (Google Maps doesn't).

For alleged security reasons, it is very hard to get a SIM in China now. Compared to a few years ago.

And a lot of phones that people use in Australia, are locked to a particular Australian network, and won't work at all overseas. People who are frequent travellers and depend on their phones can pay more to get around this. People who are not frequent travellers, or who don't depend on their phones, might not.

And good luck with getting the chinese bus trip planner to work, even if your phone does.

[rogf24]

For alleged security reasons, it is very hard to get a SIM in China now. Compared to a few years ago.

And a lot of phones that people use in Australia, are locked to a particular Australian network, and won't work at all overseas. People who are frequent travellers and depend on their phones can pay more to get around this. People who are not frequent travellers, or who don't depend on their phones, might not.

And good luck with getting the chinese bus trip planner to work, even if your phone does.

Only some budget pre-paid phones are locked, even then it can be unlocked after a few recharges. All post-paid phones from your telco on contracts come unlocked these days.

If you travel to China, you can go through Hong Kong and get a "1-Card-2-Number" HK+Mainland SIM card that's fairly easy to get in HK at least and also gets you access to an unfiltered internet without a VPN. Not ideal, but this is just one country and there are benefits getting this type of SIM as well. In most places, it's much easier to get a SIM.

Use third-party planners if you can't find info from the operators, even restrictive China has third-party planners and some of them are in English.

[moa999]

And also companies like Flexiroam (ASX listed, Malaysian based) who offer reasonably priced global roaming (us$30 for 1Gb over 90 days)

But we are moving way off topic from paper maps.

[Glen]

With the exception of the USA and Canada where mobile plans are exorbitant, most of the world has very reasonable plans, even you're only in the place for a few days. It won't cost you an arm and a leg to get a local SIM. And a local SIM is not just useful for transport, it can help you find good restaurants, etc.

From my experience, it can take quite some time to figure out the best value sim card when you are visiting a country you have never been to.

In that time, you could just pick up a paper map!

Have you ever noticed that tourist hotels still have racks full of printed brochures for tourist attractions?

[Tonymercury]

Topics covered included the drive to digital-only communications with findings concluding that consumers trust, enjoy and gain a deeper understanding of information read in print, with signs of digital fatigue and concern for security and privacy evident.

And again, despite all of the talk about 'accessibility' by TfNSW, those who have issues with using small devices are being thrown to the wolves and ignored.

[Liamena]

Poor wayfinding:

I am contemplating a trip to West Pymble soon, and got somewhat baffled trying to figure out the possibilities to get there from the railway.

There are quite a few options, trip planner does a reasonably good job if you know exactly where and when you are going and how you are going to trade off walking distance for delays.

There is the 560 from Gordon which makes a one-way loop around West Pymble.
There is the 562 from Gordon to Macquarie which only runs 3 times a day and takes a scenic route through the east side of west pymble, none of which is more than 200 metres from the main road.
There is the 575 from Hornsby to Macquarie which stops at Pymble Station.
There is the 572 from Turramurra which goes via South Turramurra and West Pymble. All these are transdev.
There is the 197 by Forest which also goes from Gordon Station to Macquarie and apparently uses a different street in Macquarie Park.
There is also a bus from Lindfield that passes through West Pymble but has no stops in that suburb.

Some of these routes don't run on weekends and some have very limited service. To figure this out I had to download 7 timetables
and two maps.

Later I was at Gordon and went to look at the bus interchange and put myself in the situation of a person not familiar with the area.

There is no signage at the station indicating to people arriving by train that there are bus stops on both sides of the station.

When you approach the interchange, there are signs to stand A and stand B with no clue as to which bus goes from where.

It is very difficult to ascertain where the 197 towards Macquarie and the 197 towards Terrey Hills stop.

The 197, 560 and 562 from Gordon towards West Pymble and Macquarie start from the same stop. There are two copies
of a poster with the times for all these buses. There is no information about where the buses actually go, at all. It is
a pretty lame excuse for a poster, particularly at a supposed interchange.

[boronia]

Poor wayfinding:



Later I was at Gordon and went to look at the bus interchange and put myself in the situation of a person not familiar with the area.

There is no signage at the station indicating to people arriving by train that there are bus stops on both sides of the station.

When you approach the interchange, there are signs to stand A and stand B with no clue as to which bus goes from where.

It is very difficult to ascertain where the 197 towards Macquarie and the 197 towards Terrey Hills stop.

The 197, 560 and 562 from Gordon towards West Pymble and Macquarie start from the same stop. There are two copies
of a poster with the times for all these buses. There is no information about where the buses actually go, at all. It is
a pretty lame excuse for a poster, particularly at a supposed interchange.

This is pretty much what you get at most stops, interchanges and bus terminals around Sydney. these days.

TfNSW assumes that every prospective passenger has a smartphone app to get the information, they have no desire to provide alternative.