Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Tallewang
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Tallewang »

dude wrote:Use of only one door is another trait of Australia slooping down into the English settee. I wonder how long it might take the centre door of the Borismasters to ban from entry via the said door.
I dunno why you would think that is an "English" issue ; the English like jumping on and off open platforms on the back of their buses.

It seems to be more a case of lawyer-driven nannyism ( which is different to doctor/nutritionist nannyism and polical correctness nannyism ), and which is definitely an American illness.

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

I thought Britain was the birthplace of nannying.

I suspect forcing people through the front door is some kind of State Treasury/bean counter thing whereby everybody is "screened" for revenue protection purposes. I don't know how they will cope with trams, but trams will set the precedent for the end of the old practice. After that there will be no justification.

I found it interesting observing public preference for which door to use on multidoor buses in Europe. The centre door is the clear favourite (probably because of the big standee space opposite that prams can also be wheeled into), followed by the rear door. The front door is probably less popular because it is obstructed by the right-angle turn forced by the driver's position. It sure does fabulous wonders for dwell time and distributes the loads evenly through the bus. Not rocket science.

The answer for the bean counters of course is a large squad of aggressively deployed randomly-striking RPOs to strike the fear of god into everyone. The police highway patrol is quite good at that, though for less legitimate reasons (the "fare" has already been paid at registration time, so OSR is simply double-dipping :roll:).
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simonl
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by simonl »

tonyp wrote:I suspect forcing people through the front door is some kind of State Treasury/bean counter thing whereby everybody is "screened" for revenue protection purposes.
No doubt, although it wouldn't have been Treasury but STA's internal bean counters. Ditto for private operators, both of whom kept the fares until Unsworth.

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08 XDi
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by 08 XDi »

Doc68 wrote:bloody joke this has gone on so long. The knee jerk reaction, the wasted money, & productivity. The gov buses had mirrors (most privates too tight to do same) BUT best was the Brisbane Leopards when the rear door was closed if someone (kids) put their hands between the door rubbers an alarm would sound :shock: Worked on those buses built in the 60's, must have been in the too hard basket for the later body builders. but could have saved lives as well as sped up public transport
All Brisbane Transport vehicles still have this set up. Surprising that it isn't more widespread.
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hornetfig
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by hornetfig »

tonyp wrote:I suspect forcing people through the front door is some kind of State Treasury/bean counter thing whereby everybody is "screened" for revenue protection purposes. I don't know how they will cope with trams, but trams will set the precedent for the end of the old practice. After that there will be no justification.
Forcing people through the front door is a consequence of how OMO was achieved that we're now stuck with.

Sydneyrail2014

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

It is the policy now of transit systems to use back doors on all buses fitted with back doors. Win for western sydney.

Pushing this through other privates by starting a petition soon on change.org and delivering it to the government

Tallewang
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Tallewang »

hornetfig wrote:
tonyp wrote:I suspect forcing people through the front door is some kind of State Treasury/bean counter thing whereby everybody is "screened" for revenue protection purposes. I don't know how they will cope with trams, but trams will set the precedent for the end of the old practice. After that there will be no justification.
Forcing people through the front door is a consequence of how OMO was achieved that we're now stuck with.

This makes no sense. OMO was a huge political issue 40 years ago, mainly on the government buses, because, to the best of my recollection, non-government buses didn't have conductors. If forcing people through the front door is an outcome of OMO, then how come 85% of Sydney buses passengers exit through the back door, but in western sydney you are generally forced to use the front door ?

I was in Newcastle recently, and caught six buses, and I counted the people getting on and off, and only 40% of the passengers got out the back door. But most of the buses only had about 4 people on them, and they were sitting right at the front.

BAMBAM
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by BAMBAM »

Sydneyrail2014 wrote:It is the policy now of transit systems to use back doors on all buses fitted with back doors. Win for western sydney.

Pushing this through other privates by starting a petition soon on change.org and delivering it to the government
Really, you gonna start a petition, boy you really must have nothing to do.

Opening the back door, whats difference does it make?

Your still exiting the bus anyway regardless its the back or front. Its just doors at the back and if the driver doesn't open it then walk to the front simple!

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by marcnut1996 »

BAMBAM wrote:
Sydneyrail2014 wrote:It is the policy now of transit systems to use back doors on all buses fitted with back doors. Win for western sydney.

Pushing this through other privates by starting a petition soon on change.org and delivering it to the government
Really, you gonna start a petition, boy you really must have nothing to do.

Opening the back door, whats difference does it make?

Your still exiting the bus anyway regardless its the back or front. Its just doors at the back and if the driver doesn't open it then walk to the front simple!
It makes a difference. Drivers of crowded buses may think that no one is getting off (even if the bell is pressed) when there is a poor fellow trying to squeeze into the crowd just to get out at the front door.
Lives in Region 1, loves buses in Western Sydney.

Sydneyrail2014

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

BAMBAM wrote:
Sydneyrail2014 wrote:It is the policy now of transit systems to use back doors on all buses fitted with back doors. Win for western sydney.

Pushing this through other privates by starting a petition soon on change.org and delivering it to the government
Really, you gonna start a petition, boy you really must have nothing to do.

Opening the back door, whats difference does it make?

Your still exiting the bus anyway regardless its the back or front. Its just doors at the back and if the driver doesn't open it then walk to the front simple!
Its the delay of off-loading and on-loading, and in that delay period (although the bus may reach its final destination on time), that off-loading and on-loading makes buses late at interchanges, making you miss connecting services. Gladys quotes in one of her press releases "Minister Gladys Berejiklian has said that Sydney commuters will have to get used to interchange more, as one of the features of a modern transport system". With some services being run at half-hourly or hourly intervals, it kills just to miss that connection by 1 or 2 minutes due to a simple reason that private companies don't open back doors.

Its not that I don't have any thing to do, I do charity and I work full time, I rely on public transport to get to where I need to go and most of the time with my public transport it involves me catching 1 bus, 2 buses or 2 buses and 2 trains. The new timetable is great, if only the services (in particular the buses ran on time, and its considered to run on time because of that "6 minute late running KPI")

BAMBAM
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by BAMBAM »

You shouldn't really plan in general on any forms of transport to make a connection within 1-5 minutes due to numerous factors that could happen on any trip.

Also, if you are so worried about making your connection, why don't you move to the front of the bus before the bus is stopping, its guaranteed all drivers open the front door first especially the privates.

I just don't see making a petition about opening the backdoor worthwhile at all, as whats more important bus taking you a-b or buses opening the back door.

Sydneyrail2014

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

Its what trip planner comes up with, and on services that run hourly or half-hourly, it means you have to leave really early just to get to somewhere you could have left a bit later for if services ran on time. An example being trains in outer suburban areas (cabramatta etc.) running every half an hour with bus services from the suburbs running also every half hour - an hour. It really doesn't match up with international or even national standards.

Its not just about me alighting off the bus, its the other number of passengers who need to alight off the bus and other number of passengers that need to get on the bus which delays the journey + the fact of customers paying cash.

Okay so I get the point, no petition.

ajw373
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by ajw373 »

BAMBAM wrote:Also, if you are so worried about making your connection, why don't you move to the front of the bus before the bus is stopping, its guaranteed all drivers open the front door first especially the privates.
Think you will find what he was saying is at each stop having people go through the front doors only adds a slight amount of time to each stop, that by the time he gets to the interchange stop, that time may have added up to a significant enough time to have missed his connection. So moving to the front won't help.

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Post by Newcastle Flyer »

My highlight in quote.
Sydneyrail2014 wrote:It is the policy now of transit systems to use back doors on all buses fitted with back doors. Win for western sydney.
White lives matter too, as do ALL lives.

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Next baby step - all-door boarding.
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BAMBAM
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by BAMBAM »

Sydneyrail2014 wrote:Its what trip planner comes up with, and on services that run hourly or half-hourly, it means you have to leave really early just to get to somewhere you could have left a bit later for if services ran on time. An example being trains in outer suburban areas (cabramatta etc.) running every half an hour with bus services from the suburbs running also every half hour - an hour. It really doesn't match up with international or even national standards.

Its not just about me alighting off the bus, its the other number of passengers who need to alight off the bus and other number of passengers that need to get on the bus which delays the journey + the fact of customers paying cash.

Okay so I get the point, no petition.
Why no petition, that because what I said is my opinion shouldn't stop you from doing, who knows it might work, you never know unless you try.

Also I currently live and travel a lot in western sydney areas, and I always and try to have a 10 minute gap for connections, always trying to plan just in case of delays not having to worry. Your experience is different to mine because your delays seems to be drivers not using the back door, in my experience the delays were from the passengers like holding the bus up when paying their fare when they could of sort it out prior to the bus arriving, passengers arguing about fares, passengers behaviours and also one time bus driver sorting out his stuff, ignoring the lights and completely had green and missed it and had to wait even longer. Also driver changes can cause delay when the other driver hasn't turned up yet, but in my experience the back door and unloading was never an issue, never had your issue before.

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

BAMBAM wrote:
Sydneyrail2014 wrote: Also I currently live and travel a lot in western sydney areas,
Out in the backblocks of Australia it's not really an issue. In the busier urban areas it's an issue of whether buses continue to have relevance as a productive transport mode.

Something along the lines of:

Wilcannia - 1 door
Ultimo - 5 doors

:wink:
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Sydneyrail2014

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

Yes all those issues occur as well which add up dwell times, hopefully cash free buses and opal only fares will be introduced to combat that, and as for back doors I think it should be in place too atleast reduce the dwell time just by a bit

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Sydneyrail2014 wrote:Yes all those issues occur as well which add up dwell times, hopefully cash free buses and opal only fares will be introduced to combat that, and as for back doors I think it should be in place too atleast reduce the dwell time just by a bit
Not only that, multiple doors distribute the load evenly through the bus (like a train or tram) and thus enable it to make proper use of its capacity. Nothing more unproductive than a plug of people down near the front door, like a tomato sauce bottle.

Last year I was having lunch in Darlinghurst with a friend from Europe attending the Ausrail conference. We sat watching the passing parade of cars and buses. After a short while he turned and asked me, rather shocked: "your buses only have two doors?"

I had to explain to him that, even worse, passengers queued to enter through the front door only.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

Exactly 2 doors or more are essential.

Think about the T-way, it was either rail or t-way, and a lot of commuters use the t-way from Bonnyrigg or prairiewood t-way to go to parramatta and catch express trains to city. Takes the same time as driving to the closest station and catching a train.

Imagine trains only having one door opening during suburbs, but city has both doors opening. At the moment with the 2 car sets and the limited amount of doors, it's much like exiting an airplane when you catch the Bathurst bullet into the city or the SHL from moss vale to the city.

Those back doors are essential, for off loading and on loading. If only they used the back doors for boarding.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Bus_fellow »

Clearly there are big advantages to using the back doors for boarding, but how would you get people to actually tap on when they get on at the back? There would be a huge risk of increasing fare evasion with boarding at all doors, because it would be so much easier to get on a bus without paying (especially on busy routes where this would give the biggest operational advantages).

Once Opal is fully rolled out, it might well make sense to allow boarding at all doors, but those operational advantages would come at a big cost in terms of additional measures to offset the increased incidence of fare evasion, which in practice probably means a lot more transport officers doing a lot of ticket checking on buses.

Given the amount it might cost to employ another couple of hundred transport officers, this is the kind of change that would need some serious scrutiny before being implemented. It might well make sense, but it isn't necessarily a straightforward decision.

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

^^
What's different from the situation on trams? Do the same.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Glen »

Bus_fellow wrote:Clearly there are big advantages to using the back doors for boarding, but how would you get people to actually tap on when they get on at the back? There would be a huge risk of increasing fare evasion with boarding at all doors, because it would be so much easier to get on a bus without paying (especially on busy routes where this would give the biggest operational advantages).
Don't just think mode think transport.

How will people tag-on on trams?

(Answer: not by boarding at the front door I can tell you).

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Mr OC Benz »

Most European tram networks, like buses would have validating machines (or in this case Opal readers) located at or near each door on the tram. In some places they are placed on the tram platform and you tag on/validate your ticket before you board (like you would at an open train station with no fare barrier). On board tagging on/validating (with the relevant equipment located near the doors) seems to be preferred.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Sydneyrail2014 »

It's not about fare evasion. If it was about fare evasion, they would have allowed passengers to board the bus using back doors on free shuttles.

It's about lack of consistent operating procedures with different operators. I think brand should be one "Sydney buses", and this brand should be franchised out to multiple operators. Eg, hillsbus, Transdev, STA, etc. this way operating procedures, branding are kept consistent

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