Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Certainly many Australian bus stops are poorly engineered, but it's never been a consideration in the widespread practice of allowing rear door exit. Boarding on the other hand is probably less of an issue because a potential passenger is in a position to appraise the condition of a bus stop before the bus arrives and if the ground isn't good enough to board by the rear door they will likely use the front door. They won't be taken by surprise about the bus stop condition like an arriving, exiting passenger (let me tell you sometime about exiting into a fence or a drainage ditch in the dark!).

What the union doesn't explain is why rear door boarding is any more dangerous than rear door exit. Many drivers have been overseeing both for years using only mirrors. The advent of CCTV in new buses has opened up excellent sightlines. There's little excuse any longer and NSW has rapidly become isolated among Australian jurisdictions in resisting such progress. Moreover it's a strongly instutionalised opposition and TWU NSW has obviously now closed ranks with the militant alliance of TfNSW and RTBU. I don't know what sort of people inhabit the top levels of the bus sector in NSW nowadays but with issues like this, buying buses with steps at the doors, disdain for hybrids and apparent irrational hatred of artics they seem determined that the largest bus jurisdiction in Australia doesn't intend to be a national exemplar anytime soon.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:Certainly many Australian bus stops are poorly engineered, but it's never been a consideration in the widespread practice of allowing rear door exit. Boarding on the other hand is probably less of an issue because a potential passenger is in a position to appraise the condition of a bus stop before the bus arrives and if the ground isn't good enough to board by the rear door they will likely use the front door. They won't be taken by surprise about the bus stop condition like an arriving, exiting passenger (let me tell you sometime about exiting into a fence or a drainage ditch in the dark!).

What the union doesn't explain is why rear door boarding is any more dangerous than rear door exit. Many drivers have been overseeing both for years using only mirrors. The advent of CCTV in new buses has opened up excellent sightlines. There's little excuse any longer and NSW has rapidly become isolated among Australian jurisdictions in resisting such progress. Moreover it's a strongly instutionalised opposition and TWU NSW has obviously now closed ranks with the militant alliance of TfNSW and RTBU. I don't know what sort of people inhabit the top levels of the bus sector in NSW nowadays but with issues like this, buying buses with steps at the doors, disdain for hybrids and apparent irrational hatred of artics they seem determined that the largest bus jurisdiction in Australia doesn't intend to be a national exemplar anytime soon.
The federal transport minister needs to get together with all state and territory transport ministers and the national bosses of the RBTU and TWU to sort out a national universal united standard agreement when it comes to all door loading
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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:The federal transport minister needs to get together with all state and territory transport ministers and the national bosses of the RBTU and TWU to sort out a national universal united standard agreement when it comes to all door loading
That would probably only result in the unions waking up to their double standard and banning the use of rear doors nationally. It's in the average trade union DNA to gain leverage by impeding progress wherever they can.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Then just leave the unions out of the negotiations as that would be a better outcome
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Stu
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Stu »

Q. Will there be rear door loading on buses?

The RTBU has met with the State Transit Authority and gone through the Risk Assessment process in regards to rear door loading in the current environment. That process has made it clear that there is no way for WHS to sign off on rear door loading, even with so few passengers. If people make the decision to rear door load and someone gets hurts, they are fully responsible and would be open to legal action. For this reason the Union does not encourage the practice.

https://tramandbusexpress.com.au/faqs-f ... -covid-19/

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by ZIB-585 »

I had a look at the media release to see *why* rear door boarding is "incredibly dangerous". Not surprisingly, there was no extra information.

Having TWU NSW say this is at odds with the practice of rear door boarding which is occurring in ACT (whose drivers belong to the same union).

If they want to be taken seriously, they need to explain exactly what the problem is and why such problems do not exist in Canberra and elsewhere.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

There is a hint in the RTBU response that SafeWork NSW could have a role, which may explain differences from other jurisdictions, but I'm sceptical that that's all there is to it. For one thing, I'd imagine that WHS would be admininistered to nationally agreed standards and not differ between states and territories.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by In Transit »

Tony, I'd doubt it. That is most likely referring to STA's own safety department and/or committee. It's perfectly possible to conduct risk assessments to the same generic high level standard and come up with polar opposite results - depending on who is in the room, their own perspective and what outcomes they actually want. "Agreed standards" just provide a framework for a defensible outcome, not the answers.

Often Sydney's bus industry places absolutely no value on what is done elsewhere, regardless of topic. Plenty of examples of this - and the whole rear door saga over the last few decades is a classic. This would only continue a long tradition. The tragic part is that sometimes elsewhere in the country other agencies actually think Sydney is providing leadership.

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

ZIB-585 wrote:I had a look at the media release to see *why* rear door boarding is "incredibly dangerous". Not surprisingly, there was no extra information.

Having TWU NSW say this is at odds with the practice of rear door boarding which is occurring in ACT (whose drivers belong to the same union).

If they want to be taken seriously, they need to explain exactly what the problem is and why such problems do not exist in Canberra and elsewhere.
I have put the question directly to the NSW branches of both unions, including reference to operations in other states in which their members work, and have left it a few days for replies to come in. RTBU says they won't operate rear doors for entry without door cameras. Given that a very small minority of STA buses would have door cameras, I'd give it about 30 years for that to come about. They made no comment on their Brisbane all-door loading operations. I'm sure that, likewise, most Brisbane buses wouldn't have door cameras.

TWU said they would come back to me and haven't.

I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation. It's obviously very easy to point the hypocrisy stick at them but they probably wouldn't care because their political battles are state-focussed. Not budging their position to protect their members from the Covid virus, when union branches in other states and territories have compromised, is pretty sick though.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by ZIB-585 »

tonyp wrote:
I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation.
Except that ACTION drivers also come under the NSW state branch.

(Also ACTION have just under half the fleet with rear door cameras.)

If TWU want to assert that "Sydney is different", then they should come out and say that, and make it clear what the differences are.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

ZIB-585 wrote:
tonyp wrote:
I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation.
Except that ACTION drivers also come under the NSW state branch.

(Also ACTION have just under half the fleet with rear door cameras.)

If TWU want to assert that "Sydney is different", then they should come out and say that, and make it clear what the differences are.
The only issue between Sydney and Canberra when it comes to buses and rear door loading is the NSW branch of the RTBU most probably having a strangle hold on Transport For NSW
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

All this talk of rear-door boarding interstate. It seems like Transdev Melbourne is now officially doing rear-door only boarding, of course, many drivers have been doing it on own anyway in Melbourne. And remember that Transdev Melbourne has notorious issues yet decided that it was safe to this. I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

rogf24 wrote: I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359
Not under the authoritarian NSW system.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote:
rogf24 wrote: I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359
Not under the authoritarian NSW system.
Transport For NSW is run by the anti rear door loading NSW branch of the RTBU with help from the NSW government
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Fleet Lists »

How does the NSW Government come into as opposed to Transport for NSW?
Living in the Shire.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote:How does the NSW Government come into as opposed to Transport for NSW?
By being too passive on the issue. Constance does have a tendency to take TfNSW's word for anything.
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