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Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:28 am

neilrex wrote:
Anyway, it seems a bit pointless to worry about 10 or 15 seconds, when the bus will spend two of the next six minutes stationary at traffic lights.

I've been looking at the route on streetview and I'm failing to find a single traffic light, or was that a generic statement?

The level of development is amazing, a city within a city. Plenty of patronage offering there for a shuttle and there seem to be a couple of State Transit services going through the area too but apparently people prefer the shuttle - I guess it offer more direct access to a train station.

I remember looking at the huge job of excavating heaps of chemical contamination from this peninsula years ago.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:28 am

From the back door boardings I've seen recently on State Transit, the drivers don't seem to care.

I saw one case where the bus was early, catching up time and the driver left both doors open while waiting and someone boarded through the back, the driver didn't care and continued to leave both doors open until it was time to leave.

And in another case, the driver asked the person boarding at the back if he tapped on. He didn't even give say it was not safe or something like that or ask him not to do it again, he just wanted to make sure he tapped on. I think he was obviously aware that boarding through the back was very safe.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:36 am

rogf24 wrote:From the back door boardings I've seen recently on State Transit, the drivers don't seem to care.

I saw one case where the bus was early, catching up time and the driver left both doors open while waiting and someone boarded through the back, the driver didn't care and continued to leave both doors open until it was time to leave.

And in another case, the driver asked the person boarding at the back if he tapped on. He didn't even give say it was not safe or something like that or ask him not to do it again, he just wanted to make sure he tapped on. I think he was obviously aware that boarding through the back was very safe.

YMMV. I witnessed one driver at Maroubra Jcn refuse to move until a pair who had entered thru the centre doors left that way and came back through the front. There was a mini standoff until the passengers decided to just do as he wanted so as not to prolong the scene and agitate other passengers watching on.
Another time a long bus driver on the 400 instructed me to reenter through the front and blabbed on about how I'm not supposed to do that and it's not safe etc to which I nodded and said sure just to shut him up.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:48 am

A bit of forensic research on the Baylink reveals that the three CB80s acquired by Telfords for Baylink are their own in-house job from Custom, the first off the line from the new company apparently. From Telford's Facebook page here are the three buses:

Image

Nice, but they just made a mistake with that centre door.

This isn't some little fleabag service, it's apparently getting about 80,000 journeys a month. They had to upgrade the buses because the Solos were getting substantially overloaded. This will be yet another of those completely unpredicted transport success stories that I pessimistically foresee the grey blanket of TfNSW eventually catching up with and descending upon.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:58 am

rogf24 wrote:I agree, the single leaf centre door and single queue really kills it, the all-door boarding was great but those other 2 things really reduced the benefits.


I haven't done a passenger head-count here but it looks like the passenger numbers are similar. The Perth bus with passengers clumped in a mob and double-leaf doors completes the process in 40 seconds (including prior disembarking), compared with Baylink with its straggling queue and single-leaf door taking one minute. All of these things contribute and cumulatively add up into minutes over the length of a journey. It's not something to casually dismiss and in Europe it isn't - it's a science there and used to be in Sydney back in the days of the trams by the way!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeCFTlR3d8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-3ydX_GIkY
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:42 pm

^ People would say the queuing is more civilised and proper way to board a bus. I've noticed at Green Square & Redfern station bus stops there is no sort of queuing for buses people just swarm through that front door. If you want to see people being quick just look at American black Friday sales or being more local to home baby formula craze.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:07 am

Frosty wrote:^ People would say the queuing is more civilised and proper way to board a bus. I've noticed at Green Square & Redfern station bus stops there is no sort of queuing for buses people just swarm through that front door. If you want to see people being quick just look at American black Friday sales or being more local to home baby formula craze.

Queuing is pointless with all-door boarding and slows down the process.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:46 pm

I boarded through the back door of an M30 today and the driver decided to give me a lecture so I decided to get into an argument with him.

He said that it wasn't safe to board through the back door because he couldn't see it but then I pointed to the screen which showed very clearly a view of the back door. He said he doesn't care about the camera because it goes off once the doors close, but that's only when the doors close, not when it's open. I wonder what the point of the camera is then. I told him how they did it in Rhodes, then said that this was Sydney, Australia and pointed out that it was suburban Sydney and it had cameras too. He said that he still didn't care but clearly his I can't see and not done in Sydney argument had fallen apart. He then said that there were no sensors on the doors, but I wonder what type of sensor they use to know the doors are closed and the door camera switches off. And besides, the screen was still showing the back door while it was closed when I was arguing with him.

A clear sign of the insular not invented here attitude. Next stop, someone gets on through the back and he doesn't bat an eyelid. Screw him and his insular attitude, I'll continue to board through the back when it's open and convenient for me.

On the flip side, the driver of a bus I got on yesterday (STA this time) told people to use the back doors at a busy stop that didn't have marshalls, well as in he kept the doors open, some people started using the others and then he told everyone else to use the back doors. That was nice. The funny thing is that both buses today and yesterday were Volgren CR228L so I don't get the difference at all.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:01 pm

Not to mention that it's done in virtually every other state and territory. Check which union he belongs to. No TWU member in Australia should have a problem with it. The reality however is that this is their instruction from TfNSW. RTBU may be the instigator, but the ruling is from TfNSW.

On the Gong Shuttle the driver's CCTV display is also fed through (accidentally?) to the big PID screen in the passenger saloon and you can see exactly when the door display enlarges on opening and then reduces when the door is shut. In enlarged mode it goes to full screen, in reduced there are about six smaller displays from the various cameras around the bus.

Be wary of drivers who use the camera to deliberately shut the door in your face when you start to board through it. Dangerous and they'll find themselves in court if an accident or injury results and the fact that its not allowed wont be a legal argument with regard to liability.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Glen » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:02 pm

It would certainly be better for all if this was applied consistently across the network.

Adelaide now has all door boarding on O-Bahn buses and it's as easy az.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:08 pm

tonyp wrote:Be wary of drivers who use the camera to deliberately shut the door in your face when you start to board through it. Dangerous and they'll find themselves in court if an accident or injury results and the fact that its not allowed wont be a legal argument with regard to liability.


I submitted feedback to TfNSW after I saw that incident at Edgecliff where someone on crutches had the back door slammed shut on him and the driver kept the front door open and forced him to walk up to the front so you'll think that they know it's a problem. That said, their response was like this was poor customer service and didn't say anything about safety even though I had raised it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:11 pm

rogf24 wrote:
He said that it wasn't safe to board through the back door because he couldn't see it but then I pointed to the screen which showed very clearly a view of the back door. He said he doesn't care about the camera because it goes off once the doors close, but that's only when the doors close, not when it's open. I wonder what the point of the camera is then. I told him how they did it in Rhodes, then said that this was Sydney, Australia and pointed out that it was suburban Sydney and it had cameras too. He said that he still didn't care but clearly his I can't see and not done in Sydney argument had fallen apart. He then said that there were no sensors on the doors, but I wonder what type of sensor they use to know the doors are closed and the door camera switches off. And besides, the screen was still showing the back door while it was closed when I was arguing with him.


Sounds like you got a driver like this. Funny thing is the minions in TNSW look exactly the same. :P
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:56 pm

Don't know why but that reminds me of the time when a bus was waiting turning right at the lights on a busy road and someone was standing in the No Standing Area and the driver told the standing passenger to move away from the area but the passenger didn't. So the driver decided to open the centre door on the standing passenger in the middle of the busy road with cars running past. That was messed up, but at the same time, I bet that would have been the type of driver that would complain about centre door boarding. Trying to solve an unsafe situation, which really isn't really unsafe anyway, with an even more unsafe situation. Maybe because the picture looked very similar to the driver in that incident too.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby citaro393 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:33 pm

rogf24 wrote:
tonyp wrote:Be wary of drivers who use the camera to deliberately shut the door in your face when you start to board through it. Dangerous and they'll find themselves in court if an accident or injury results and the fact that its not allowed wont be a legal argument with regard to liability.


I submitted feedback to TfNSW after I saw that incident at Edgecliff where someone on crutches had the back door slammed shut on him and the driver kept the front door open and forced him to walk up to the front so you'll think that they know it's a problem. That said, their response was like this was poor customer service and didn't say anything about safety even though I had raised it.


I saw something similar at Central on the university buses which are all-door boarding. The driver closed the back door while passengers were still boarding then came off the bus and told the marshall he couldnt take anymore standing passengers as there were 15 already (which he definitely could given it was an artic). Marshall yelled at him not to close the door until he tells him to.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:49 am

citaro393 wrote:
I saw something similar at Central on the university buses which are all-door boarding. The driver closed the back door while passengers were still boarding then came off the bus and told the marshall he couldnt take anymore standing passengers as there were 15 already (which he definitely could given it was an artic). Marshall yelled at him not to close the door until he tells him to.

60 - 15 = approx 45 more standing spaces still available above his limit. Does he realise that he and three more of his articulated-driving mates will be replaced by one tram driver in a year? If we go by his (sounds suspiciously like RTBU) passenger-capacity limit, him and another five of his mates. The bus industry's capacity for scoring own goals never ceases to amaze.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby David10 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:15 pm

tonyp wrote:Does he realise that he and three more of his articulated-driving mates will be replaced by one tram driver in a year?
Sorry to rain on your driver bashing parade, but the RTBU have been advised there will be no job losses as a result of the light rail. :lol: :lol: :lol: Although some are expected to make the transition from bus to tram driving.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:38 pm

David10 wrote:Sorry to rain on your driver bashing parade, but the RTBU have been advised there will be no job losses as a result of the light rail. :lol: :lol: :lol: Although some are expected to make the transition from bus to tram driving.

I'm describing the hypothetical consequence. In Sydney I would expect the displaced buses and their drivers to be put to use bolstering services that need more capacity or even opening up new services.

Not many out of total numbers would be required as tram drivers. I hope those who do will have no problem opening doors other than the front-most or have a problem with more than 15 standees being on board. ;)
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:42 pm

David10 wrote:
tonyp wrote:Does he realise that he and three more of his articulated-driving mates will be replaced by one tram driver in a year?
Sorry to rain on your driver bashing parade, but the RTBU have been advised there will be no job losses as a result of the light rail. :lol: :lol: :lol: Although some are expected to make the transition from bus to tram driving.

David10 why do you jump to the worst conclusions based on the slightest criticism on your sacred cow bus worker mates? Fact of the matter is they are not and never ever will get immunity from well deserved criticism. I came across a legend today on the 377 who stopped for me despite having my head buried looking here. I had given it up for dead as it was 5 mins overdue and only had a short distance from it's starting point. He stopped anyway and was well within his rights not to. I would have only been angry with myself if I had missed him. He had a chuckle when I told him why I wasn't looking.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:50 pm

The entire bus door/passenger-load thing and its inconsistency between drivers and across sectors (government/private) is just appalling and I blame managements (starting at the top with TfNSW) for not setting standards and ensuring that they're implemented, complied with and enforced. I mean enforced in a positive way, that is not with some negative blanket policy that "doors shall not be opened"! You drivers who are taking umbrage at this, don't you see for a moment the stupidity of it? It's really nobbling the effectiveness of the bus industry as a contributor to the public transport task - but as I said, I don't blame drivers first and foremost, this is a failure of management.

It's also one of those issues that makes it a pleasure visiting Perth where there is obviously a consistent policy - buses fill to max, all-door entry on CATs and event buses, front door entry and all doors consistently opening on all buses for front and centre/rear door exit on all other route buses (only for revenue protection reasons to date, though that may change).
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:02 pm

^ good luck getting consistency in this town. Maybe in another era far far away!
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:02 pm

One thing I will say is that in Melbourne, while the official policy is front door boarding on buses, I notice that lots and lots of people use the back door to board anyway and the drivers don't seem to care. It seems to be lightly enforced or not at all, and it's not just a few buses, it's almost every bus you can see someone boarding through the back, especially at busy stops. You can very clearly see this at places like Chadstone, the driver opens both doors and people get on through both doors, although most get on through the front, a number of people do get on through the back on almost every bus. It's really lightly enforced and widely ignored by passengers there. I wonder how much all-door boarding on trams has to do with this?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Glen » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:11 am

I was on a Busways bus in the north west yesterday and was surprised that the driver did not open the back door at any stop, even when passengers from the rear of the bus stood at it expecting it.

Watching everybody having to trapse down the front of the bus really took me back to the old days.

It used to be a regular sight on CDC buses too, but I must say for quite some time they have been very consistent with using both doors for alighting.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:04 am

Glen wrote:
Watching everybody having to trapse down the front of the bus really took me back to the old days.

My old days are even older, like Hunters Hill Bus Co after they changed to OMO and on crowded buses they opened the back door to let people out. It was just common sense, or the bus would have been unworkable.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby neilrex » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:57 am

rogf24 wrote:One thing I will say is that in Melbourne, while the official policy is front door boarding on buses, I notice that lots and lots of people use the back door to board anyway and the drivers don't seem to care. It seems to be lightly enforced or not at all, and it's not just a few buses, it's almost every bus you can see someone boarding through the back, especially at busy stops. You can very clearly see this at places like Chadstone, the driver opens both doors and people get on through both doors, although most get on through the front, a number of people do get on through the back on almost every bus. It's really lightly enforced and widely ignored by passengers there. I wonder how much all-door boarding on trams has to do with this?


Nearly all of the back-door boarders I observe in Melbourne are feral teen fare-evaders.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:07 am

Really depends where but when I was at Chadstone, I definitely saw everyone who got on at the back touch their Myki.

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