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Use of Back Door on Buses

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:56 am

Used the centre doors to enter at Eastgardens on a 400 yesterday.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby matthewg » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:37 am

Swift wrote:Used the centre doors to enter at Eastgardens on a 400 yesterday.


I while back I was on a 400 at Eastgardens when someone did that. The driver actually got up out of his seat to yell towards the back 'you must board by the front door'. The person who got on via that door simply ignored the driver and sat down.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:12 am

The low-floor hybrid Volvo B5LH chassis being introduced to service in Latrobe Valley today (and soon also with CDC Victoria) may be the first on the local market to clearly enable a stepless door behind the rear axle as well as stepless centre door/s between the axles. I haven't checked whether Vovlo has an artic version yet, though I believe it is available in UK for a double decker. In the single decker, the radiator, compressor and batteries are on the roof. Body for the Victorian orders is by Volgren which has put a lot of development into adapting it for Australia.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:10 pm

Always interesting to see in Australia that hybrids haven't really taken off in comparison to UK & Europe. There are probably more electric buses than hybrids ?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm

Yet they are the staple for taxis. I guess fuel savings are of low importance to bus operators, further demonstrated by all the Volvo B12BLEs out there.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:19 pm

Frosty wrote:Always interesting to see in Australia that hybrids haven't really taken off in comparison to UK & Europe. There are probably more electric buses than hybrids ?

Continental Europe has had a very strong electric bus industry and large fleet of them for many decades and that industry has been transitioning to battery drive (partial or fully) for the last couple of decades, so the alternative technology is already well-established and accepted.

However, those countries with major automotive industries that have a lot invested in diesel technology (notably Germany, Sweden and formerly UK) almost entirely dismantled their electric bus systems because diesel was more profitable for their manufacturers, with flow-through effects for the prosperity of their economies. So those countries have been quite late to the resurgent electric bus revival and, using their existing skills and resources, have concentrated on the smaller step forward to diesel-electric hybrid. In addition, gas buses have been popular in Europe as a quasi-"environmental" solution.

Time is catching up with them though because regulatory changes are progressively pushing diesel out of cities. If they don't get their act together, those automotive manufacturing countries will be buying their buses (or at least chassis or drive equipment) from the European countries that have persisted with electric bus manufacture , or from China of course.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:18 am

The low-floor hybrid Volvo B5LH chassis being introduced to service in Latrobe Valley today (and soon also with CDC Victoria) may be the first on the local market to clearly enable a stepless door behind the rear axle as well as stepless centre door/s between the axles. I haven't checked whether Vovlo has an artic version yet, though I believe it is available in UK for a double decker. In the single decker, the radiator, compressor and batteries are on the roof. Body for the Victorian orders is by Volgren which has put a lot of development into adapting it for Australia.

Of course LVBL only requires a single door bus, but a centre door is possible. It's not clear in the photos below whether Volvo has actually reversed the equipment to enable a door behind the rear axle for RHD as their their technical drawing suggests. It doesn't look like they have in this one.

Roof-mounted equipment on the Latrobe Valley hybrid:
Image

Low floor (gangway) to the rearmost seats:
Image

Rear of the interior:
Image
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Tonymercury » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:03 am

Is there something very wrong with the camber on the road there? Or just a bad photo?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:35 am

Tonymercury wrote:Is there something very wrong with the camber on the road there? Or just a bad photo?


I'd say it was taken from up some steps to a building.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:48 pm

Frosty wrote:Always interesting to see in Australia that hybrids haven't really taken off in comparison to UK & Europe. There are probably more electric buses than hybrids ?

Reflecting further on your question Frosty, I gave an account of the European background, but I wonder if you are referring to the numbers of fully-electrics vs hybrids in Australia? If this is the question then I'd be asking it too, but I think perhaps there could now be more electrics because some fleets have already been formed (notably Carbridge), but until LVBL and CDC orders came along, afaik the only hybrids to date have been a few demonstrators doing tours of various operations. Am I right in this?

As for Europe, I don't know the numbers but on the continent I doubt that hybrids would outnumber the over 35,000 electrics (mostly trolleys) in service. In the UK on the other hand there are lots of hybrids and not many electrics. There are over 170,000 electric buses in China, meaning that the world fleet of them would something well over 200,000. I suspect the number of hybrid diesel-electrics would pale in comparison.

https://www.intelligenttransport.com/tr ... es-report/
http://www.tbus.org.uk/article.htm
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:31 pm

@tonyp I’m referring to fully electric vs hybrid in Australia. Probably won’t be too long before electric buses outnumber gas buses in Australia.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:42 pm

Something which I think is highly relevant to this thread... A number of people here (including myself) have in the past advocated for wheelchair entry through the centre doors (and associated designated space opposite door) which makes it significantly easier for mobility aids to navigate, in turn increasing opportunities for inclusion while also reducing dwell time associated with these movements. This has been standard across Europe since low floor buses were introduced and more recently in parts of Asia. Australian buses in the past have experimented with rear door wheelchair access. Having the wheelchair bays next to the centre door in turn enables this space to be utilised on crowded services where people are otherwise squeezing past others getting on/off the bus. Another issue is that even with new DDA compliance bus stops, these only require a boarding point to provide access, typically meaning that for many stops, the centre door can be greeted by a variety of things - trees, seat benches, rubbish bins to name a few!

Australasian Bus & Coach wrote:3D SCANNING REVEALS ‘INCOMPATIBILITY’ IN MOBILITY AIDS’ BUS-BOARDING STANDARDS
By: Fabian Cotter

Date: 06.09.2018

BREAKING: PUBLIC TRANSPORT USABILITY and bus design access is being questioned after a new ‘Blue Label’ Standards Australia technical specification was found to be insufficient to determine if a powered mobility aid will be able to access a bus in Victoria, according to CQUniversity’s world-leading research using 3D-scanning technology, computer simulations and test rigs, it’s reported recently.

3D SCANNING REVEALS ‘INCOMPATIBILITY’ IN MOBILITY AIDS’ BUS-BOARDING STANDARDS
Bus access design has been scrutinised following 3D-scanning technology research.
The research saw 35 mobility aids and 21 buses tested for ‘stuck point’ issues, when boarding a bus.

CQUni’s Occupational Therapy Professor Carolyn Unsworth says the new technical specification was tested in its draft form over a 12-month period.

"The Disability Standards for Accessible Transport (DSAPT) and new draft technical standard 3695.3:2017 (Blue Label scheme) require buses and powered mobility aids to comply to ensure that mobility aid users can access public buses," she said.

"However, little is known about the compatibility of the standards.

"We found that the new Standards Australia technical specification will be ineffectual for determining access for people using powered mobility aids on buses."

Researchers found four of the 25 powered mobility aids that do achieve a Blue Label cannot access 11 or more buses, while two of the powered mobility aids that failed Blue Label testing could successfully access 12 and 13 buses, respectively.

Professor Unsworth says that, despite non-compliance with aspects of the Disability Standards, 3D simulations demonstrated that many powered mobility aids could still successfully access most of the buses.

Specifically, 13 of the buses could accommodate at least 22 of the 35 powered mobility aids, it’s stated.

The compatibility of the 35 powered mobility aids and 21 buses scanned (735 combinations) will be available soon for users, health professionals and bus companies through a dedicated website and mobile app.

"Since the ‘swept path’ area of buses is a major source of incompatibility, bus design in the future should investigate boarding people using powered mobility aids from double doors in the middle of the bus to a large allocated space in front of the entrance," Professor Unsworth said.

Other CQUni researchers involved in the study were Dr Julian Chua, Associate Professor Anjum Naweed, Dr Prasad Gudimetla and Professor Drew Dawson.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:39 pm

Berlin, which has front door boarding (and I think Berlin is the only major German city with front door boarding), tells wheelchair users and parents with prams to use the centre doors instead.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:36 pm

I guess this would muck things up in Perth where I assume the electric ramp has to be at the front door to be under the supervision of the driver. However, from my observations, it's faster for the driver to get out and manually operate a ramp than it takes for an electric ramp to deploy and retract, especially with the door interlocks. Less chance of failure with a manual ramp too.

In NSW, any use of a door other than the front will require relaxation of the ban on all-door loading, so the European practice would have buckleys of being introduced here in the foreseeable future. I believe there was at one stage an STA bus model that had a centre door ramp, but no doubt it's had the chop by now.

A spin-off benefit of not using the front door for mobility devices is that the aisle width can be returned to normal (narrower) and thus it becomes possible to reinstate 2+2 seating again, thus increasing the seating capacity.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:05 pm

The later deliveries of Scania L113CRLs of STA had the rear door boarding ramp most of them were transferred to Transit Systems R6 there maybe a few left at Willoughby that have ramps. I know Randwick based Scania L113CRLs have no wheelchair ramp. I remember some grandpa with his grandchild tried to fit a pram through the front even being told from driver & his wife told use the rear door and of course it didn’t fit.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:21 pm

rogf24 wrote:Berlin, which has front door boarding (and I think Berlin is the only major German city with front door boarding), tells wheelchair users and parents with prams to use the centre doors instead.

Although ironically they at one stage bought buses with ramps at both the front and centre doors but recommended the use of the front door ramp only for those who required extra assistance (perhaps at more challenging stops or where the driver could help?).

In some German cities, boarding is only permitted through rear doors at busy stops, however, it is pretty standard across Europe for wheelchairs, prams, buggies etc to board through the centre door regardless of these policies. In some cities, buses have a pole at the front door to facilitate smoother flow of pax while other cities have barriers that prohibit exit through the front door (and thus entry/exit with wheelchair/pram has to be through centre door)

The automated ramp could be at the centre door as is the case in some cities (and under trial in Singapore), but relies on adequate infrastructure to support this (deploying a ramp into a tree or sand pit is not ideal).

I agree that enabling this makes it better in utilising the interior space of the bus. It is much wiser having the benefits of extra space associated with the wheelchair space near a door to provide more room for passengers to move around, rather than in the constrained space near the wheel arches.

This is even more obvious on the B-Line double deckers where one of the wheelchair bays is opposite the centre door, yet someone in a wheelchair has to navigate the aisle constraints of the wheelarch, staircase and other pax to get off through the front door where the ramp is located! Given the modern stop infrastructure associated with B-Line, this would’ve been an ideal opportunity to improve the experience for mobility aid users.
Last edited by Mr OC Benz on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Tonymercury » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:58 am

And I keep on pointing out that a 250 mm kerb and proper kneeling obviates the need for a ramp at all/
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:20 am

Mr OC Benz wrote:The automated ramp could be at the centre door as is the case in some cities (and under trial in Singapore), but relies on adequate infrastructure to support this (deploying a ramp into a tree or sand pit is not ideal).

Tonymercury wrote:And I keep on pointing out that a 250 mm kerb and proper kneeling obviates the need for a ramp at all/

As I've said previously, if agencies like TfNSW put the same effort into enforcing good minimum standards for bus stop design as they do into tram stop or railway station design everything would work much better.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:40 am

Mr OC Benz wrote:This is even more obvious on the B-Line double deckers where one of the wheelchair bays is opposite the centre door, yet someone in a wheelchair has to navigate the aisle constraints of the wheelarch, staircase and other pax to get off through the front door where the ramp is located! Given the modern stop infrastructure associated with B-Line, this would’ve been an ideal opportunity to improve the experience for mobility aid users.

To function more efficiently and reduce dwell time, B line deckers should have entry and exit plus the ramp through the centre door so that loading and unloading can take place on the bottom deck while passengers from upstairs exit through the front door. When upstairs is emptied, those already aboard and swiped on at the lower deck and who wish to, can then proceed up the stairs. But then, on top of all that, TfNSW wants nobody to stand upstairs or on the stairs while the bus is moving (perhaps understandable in view of the recent death in Auckland). I guess we just have to accept that deckers in NSW are going to operate slowly and inefficiently, the trade-off for additional seating over long distance.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby gld59 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:39 pm

Frosty wrote:there maybe a few left at Willoughby that have ramps. I know Randwick based Scania L113CRLs have no wheelchair ramp.

12 out of 24 at Willoughby, 1 out of 34 at Randwick (but that 1 is the third oldest, so depending on condition relative to others I'm sure they'll be rid of it soon :roll: ).
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby simonl » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Tonymercury wrote:And I keep on pointing out that a 250 mm kerb and proper kneeling obviates the need for a ramp at all/

I don't know why such things aren't provided at dedicated bus infrastructure like the M2 (been a while but I can't recall seeing such a high kerb) and Brisbane's busways. Indeed, why not get rid of kneeling at such infrastructure? In practice that frequently causes delay.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby boronia » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:38 pm

I see TfNSW is now promoting the new Bondi changes on Facebook. Might be a good opportunity to make some comments about the efficincy benefits of all door boarding on the 333.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:36 pm

boronia wrote:I see TfNSW is now promoting the new Bondi changes on Facebook. Might be a good opportunity to make some comments about the efficincy benefits of all door boarding on the 333.

Which Facebook site -nsw transport?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby boronia » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:49 pm

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:56 pm

Steven Foster wrote:Drivers can see people exiting the bus via the cameras but not people entering.


Oh my, what a comment
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