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Use of Back Door on Buses

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby sunnyyan » Thu May 04, 2017 11:30 am

^
On the STA school services and normal services, I have seen that most students do not tap on at all and most bus drivers don't care. At most, the driver will give them a verbal warning.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Thu May 04, 2017 8:14 pm

^ this is going to become a "set in cement " culture unless drivers enforce this condition on errant students.
With the old passes, most of them inserted into the green AES readers, but now are too lazy to tap on and off.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby boronia » Thu May 04, 2017 8:48 pm

Same on the trains. They all just file through the wide gates which are left open.

Then have this "entitlement" when they leave school.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby sunnyyan » Fri May 05, 2017 11:55 am

The only thing they have ever done to combat this is that they had an extra conductor one day on the school 610 forcing all the students to tap on. They confiscated some cards that day as well. But it was so slow as they would only let one person on at a time, tap, and then let the next person get on. This made everyone late and all the buses had to wait for ages at Central. I even saw some drivers just driving off before picking up students. The next day it just went back to normal.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat May 27, 2017 12:14 pm

Major Australian breakthrough! Adelaide is to introduce all-door boarding on buses using the O Bahn:

http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/O-Bahn-upgrade

I think apart from Brisbane Cityglider, this would be the first modern initiative (i.e. post pre-OMO era) to do this on revenue service buses. In Perth it's so far only done on free buses and prepaid event buses.

Edit: It's made my day! :) :) :) :)

I'm wondering does anybody know which union represents most bus drivers in cities where there are examples of all-door loading (Perth, Adelaide upcoming, Brisbane, Melbourne)?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sat May 27, 2017 1:11 pm

Pretty sure it's the TWU. It's becoming increasingly evident that it is only Sydney that seems to have a paranoia problem regarding all-door boarding. Don't forget about Canberra which also allows rear-door boarding (if their media release is anything to go by).

All-door boarding summary:
Adelaide - All-door boarding on O-Bahn services from December 2017. Applies to metroCARD users only.
Brisbane - All-door boarding on CityGlider services. Applies to GoCard users only.
Canberra - All-door boarding at bus stations, terminating stops and at other stops when deemed safe to do so from 27 March 2017. Applies to MyWay users only.
Melbourne - Indication from posters here and elsewhere seem to suggest that this happens on an informal ad-hoc basis.
Perth - All-door boarding on free services (CATs) as well as for high capacity special event services (football, marathons etc).
Sydney - All-door boarding at selected stops within the Sydney CBD and only between 15:00 and 19:00 on weekdays IF Marshal is present.

Some good progress being made since this topic was first created. Just a pity that bus design hasn't kept up with actually being able to facilitate this in a more efficient way (wider doors, no step entry etc) for most cities.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat May 27, 2017 4:31 pm

It stands to reason that all-door boarding is enabled by smart card or prepaid ticketing. There should be only a trickle of people at most needing to interact with the driver, mostly those requiring the ramp. NSW would now be the only mainland state or territory apart from NT that doesn't allow unsupervised all-door boarding in any circumstance.

My understanding about the unions is that RBTU only covers those drivers working for public operators, which nowadays is basically STA, Brisbane City Council and Action. All the rest are covered by TWU (?). I suspect a major factor in the RBTU opposition to privatisation of STA regions is the prospect of loss of members to TWU, a union turf issue in other words. RBTU's opposition to all-door boarding will be another nail in their coffin. Resistance to progress never succeeds.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby matthewg » Sat May 27, 2017 6:06 pm

There is a trickle of informal 'all door' boarding happening between Sydney Uni (King Street), down Broadway to UTS. I think it's Uni students basically going 'stuff this' and using the other doors. They all 'tap on' as far as I can see. They are not doing it to fare evade, they are doing it get on the bus quicker.

The drivers appear to have given up objecting verbally, just flicking the centre door closed the moment the last person alights and before any one outside gets any ideas.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sat May 27, 2017 8:05 pm

matthewg wrote:The drivers appear to have given up objecting verbally, just flicking the centre door closed the moment the last person alights and before any one outside gets any ideas.


And then there are also drivers who encourage them to get on at the back door, which I've seen happen in that area.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Tonymercury » Sun May 28, 2017 6:00 am

matthewg wrote:There is a trickle of informal 'all door' boarding happening between Sydney Uni (King Street), down Broadway to UTS. I think it's Uni students basically going 'stuff this' and using the other doors. They all 'tap on' as far as I can see. They are not doing it to fare evade, they are doing it get on the bus quicker.

The drivers appear to have given up objecting verbally, just flicking the centre door closed the moment the last person alights and before any one outside gets any ideas.


Its happening over a far wider area.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sun May 28, 2017 8:38 pm

There are a couple of tricks I as a passenger use (so any drivers take note :twisted: ). I wait a second or two after the last passenger exits the bus before attempting to board. If the doors haven't closed straight away, chances are the driver is distracted by something else and won't close them this second and onto you. Another is if a final passenger is still fidgeting getting their card out or have reading difficulties with their card, that is your chance to board past them.
Another bonus to getting in the centre door is you get any available seats before the sheeple clambering through the front.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun May 28, 2017 8:59 pm

There is a growing number of nimble ones in Wollongong too, boarding the Gong Shuttle by the centre door. The younger drivers are more tolerant, the older ones tend to be sticklers for the rules and slam the door in people's faces on the very second that the last ankle of the last person has exited. While in some ways the issue does call for an outbreak of anarchy to break down the official resistance, I would generally urge people not to do it until the golden day when it's formalised in NSW, otherwise somebody will have a terrible accident.

The galling thing is experiencing the reality of all-door entry in other jurisdictions and seeing first hand that there is absolutely no safety issue with it and then coming back to NSW and confronting the insane institutional stubbornness.

And yes, buses load much better and the passengers distribute better (thus more of them are able to board and in a shorter time) with boarding through the other door(s). It's a complete no brainer. It's one of the most important methods for increasing bus productivity and thus move more people more efficiently.
Last edited by tonyp on Mon May 29, 2017 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Glen » Sun May 28, 2017 11:58 pm

tonyp wrote:My understanding about the unions is that RBTU only covers those drivers working for public operators.

Just for the record, RTBU. :-)
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon May 29, 2017 3:35 pm

Just remember tuberculosis.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:46 pm

I passed through Canberra today and stopped to observe buses loading at the Civic bus station. Looks like the message is slowly getting through since the rule change which now allows rear doors to be used for boarding and alighting at major stops and stations. Signs about the changes are plastered at all the shelters and even though it was a public holiday, I was surprised to see that out of the dozen or so people boarding a route 900 service, half of them entered using the rear door. Only problem was that there was a slightly longer wait to board while passengers alighted due to the narrow door leafs, but overall, still a much faster process and I'd imagine there are many benefits on the busier weekday services.

Like Sydney, Canberra has shifted away from the paranoia that existed with rear door use (even for alighting). Here's hoping Sydney, where the benefits are even greater, will follow suit in the near future...
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:08 pm

Amazingly big step from an operator that barely let people out of the centre exit.
This may lead to ordering future buses with full width centre doors and maybe even a third door out the back with full...ahh proper low floor!
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:01 pm

Mr OC Benz wrote:I passed through Canberra today and stopped to observe buses loading at the Civic bus station.

Yet another "busman's holiday" for Mr OCB! :roll: :wink:

I'm finding consistently, both here and in Europe, that people prefer to board at rear door(s). They know that they can distribute themselves and find a seat better from there. The front door is used more for exit or where there are negotiations with the driver or for wheelchairs etc.

After extensive riding on the CATs and other Transperth buses, I've now come to like the configuration with electric ramps at the front door, rather than the manual fold-out at a centre door preferred in Europe. The Perth method can be done without the driver leaving their seat and it leaves the other door(s) free for all other movements. The only downside is losing seats from having to widen the aisle at the front of the bus. The thing that is a real bugger on the Perth buses is having the other door(s) interlocked with the wheelchair ramp. I think there is no safety issue in enabling them to open independently of the ramp and just have the interlock on the front door. I wonder if this is some ADR thing that hasn't been thought through properly, or just Perth over-regulating - or the manufacturer over-engineering?

I notice that Adelaide, in their publicity for the imminent O Bahn all-door loading, that AdMet is apologising that the other doors may not be as accessible - presumably realising their past mistakes of ordering buses with steps at doors and single leaf. Even though they've ordered the pestilent Bustech, they've specified a low floor to the centre door so that there is no step. However the flipside is that there are steps to the back and most of the passengers on the low-floor can't see out the windows because Bustech hasn't altered the window-line. The klutz of the Australian bus industry. Thank heavens at least the PTA minimum standards screen them out for WA!

Next busman's holiday Adelaide Mr OCB, after the O Bahn extension opens!
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:13 pm

Swift wrote:Amazingly big step from an operator that barely let people out of the centre exit.
This may lead to ordering future buses with full width centre doors and maybe even a third door out the back with full...ahh proper low floor!

Double-leaf doors ought to be mandatory by now for urban buses across Australia. Any city that hasn't done this yet is backward. But you won't get a stepless door behind the rear axle until the chassis manufacturers do a RHD chassis with the drive components mirror-reversed to the offside. So far there hasn't been a demand from the RHD market for such a configuration. You can have a low floor (gangway) right to the back already though, if you buy from Scania (N series) or MAN (Lions City). The fact that few operations are getting this is deeply frustrating. I was hoping Perth as usual might lead the way but I think they're locked into Volvos for some time yet (?). Volvo is a bit behind in these things and Merc hasn't yet complied with the Australian width in their urban Citelis (the one that was trialled in Brisbane).
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby simonl » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:34 pm

Meant to reply to one of your other posts on this one. What do you mean about it being done in every other state? Last time I was in Melbourne it was front door boarding only. When I was last in Brisbane it is only two routes which allow it: 60 & 61. 169 criminally disallows it. In Perth it only applies to the CAT buses. Not sure about Adelaide. At least 891 has it in Sydney. as well as CBD peak stops.

Admin: Moved to the more appropriate thread.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:07 pm

It needs to be standard practice and the banning of it the exception requiring negotiation.
Especially with all this stop rationalisation and CCTV technology that gives the driver extra awareness.
Why of why does Sydney cling so hard to outdated practises at any cost?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:16 pm

simonl wrote:Meant to reply to one of your other posts on this one. What do you mean about it being done in every other state? Last time I was in Melbourne it was front door boarding only. When I was last in Brisbane it is only two routes which allow it: 60 & 61. 169 criminally disallows it. In Perth it only applies to the CAT buses. Not sure about Adelaide. At least 891 has it in Sydney. as well as CBD peak stops.

Some operators in Melbourne now use it to various degrees, as advised by others in this and other forums. Adelaide is introducting on NE routes running through the O Bahn when the O Bahn extension opens this year and it's speculated that it may become system-wide. Perth has no general prohibition on it but at this stage prefers to supervise fare compliance. Apart from the CATs it's used on event specials. As for Sydney's use of it, it's supervised. I think that's not in the spirit of it because it offsets the efficiency gains with additional labour costs and thus probably cancels itself out financially.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:03 pm

Boston has discovered the wonders of crowd management by utilising all doors.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:48 pm

Swift wrote:Boston has discovered the wonders of crowd management by utilising all doors.

When you posted this I thought you had an attachment but apparently not. So here is some futher background:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaVYAah1g_w
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:58 pm

Exactly the same - it does not give any further information.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:12 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Exactly the same - it does not give any further information.

There was no video visible to me on Swift's post, that's why I posted. However since then I see that the same video has appeared on Swift's post. What would be of more interest is wherher the change is now permanent in Boston.
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