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Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:04 pm

It's interesting that the Fremantle CATs have "no entry" signs on the centre door (from an earlier regime?) but people just board through there willy nilly and the drivers don't mind. So relaxed. No sign either of any safety issues that so trouble TfNSW and the RBTU.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:45 pm

I think the RBTU are misguided by thinking that rear door loading somehow adds stress to their members when the opposite is true. I know I would rather not have to see all those miserable faces passing me through the front door each hour and be able to get going a lot sooner.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:00 pm

tonyp wrote:It's interesting that the Fremantle CATs have "no entry" signs on the centre door (from an earlier regime?) but people just board through there willy nilly and the drivers don't mind. So relaxed. No sign either of any safety issues that so trouble TfNSW and the RBTU.

Likewise with the Joondalup CAT. People realise what's the point in being forced through the front door when they don't have to pay anyway. And since there's no revenue to protect, there is no actual policy for drivers to say they can't use the rear door. The only problem is that some people bring this mentality onto the paid services which can cause a headache for drivers since it's not something they usually have to deal with. From my observations, most let it slide in the free transit zone, but outside of that, some will force them through the front door to pay or tag on since the rear door readers default settings is for tag off only (although can be changed to tag on/off through the ticket machine if needed).
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:10 pm

So Sydney is ahead on the tag on/off score. Wow, even if it is a lucky oversight.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby user13548 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:06 am

tonyp wrote:
I thought the Renault/Citelis 12 metres in Paris were all door loading since they are basically a French design for that purpose and are used that way all over Europe.

Might be used for all door loading in other European cities. But in Paris they have a big "No entry" symbol on the rear doors, it is only at the front door where the ticket validating machines are situated. (just behind the driver as you enter)
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:22 am

Airvan00 wrote:Might be used for all door loading in other European cities. But in Paris they have a big "No entry" symbol on the rear doors, it is only at the front door where the ticket validating machines are situated. (just behind the driver as you enter)

These things are a byproduct of the societal situation in various cities/countries. It doesn't take much familiarity with the news to know that in some countries like France there are now enormous lawlessness and social problems and this would translate as a need for closer supervision on public transport. Not that it actually achieves a lot as there's little a bus driver can do against some of the viciousness nowadays.

There's plenty of buscam footage on Youtube of some truly sickening stuff on French buses. On the other hand a lot of German bus drivers are quite solidly built and will take matters into their own hands. There is a funny one on Youtube of a German driver holding a scrawny North African in a headlock and lecturing him about his social responsibilities if he wanted to live in Germany! In Hungary as a poorer country, the problem is more simply widespread fare evasion. The drivers complain a lot that they are expected to be the front line and place their lives at risk for failings in government at a higher level. Personally I would think it would be better for drivers to let passengers in the other doors just to keep themselves away from danger and direct confrontation. Let the passengers fight it out down the back rather than bash up the driver. Buses should now be like trams with the driver safely in a cab at the front and not have to police revenue.

On the other side of things in Europe, there are very orderly peaceful societies like Switzerland, Czech Republic and Austria where they have all door loading with no great problem, however there are teams of touring RPOs appearing at random and quite severe penalties, so there's no encouragement for fare evasion. This is the model we should be following here, then there's no issue opening up all the doors.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:27 am

This video from Berlin pretty-well sums up the whole situation. Go past the initial incidents and listen to the drivers and commentary (including attitudes of politicians and managers) in the last couple of minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4lzdPnXjyI
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby VivalaBuses » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:31 am

Tonyp, have you seen this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... bus_stops/

The comments make for an interesting read
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:13 pm

I'm just thinking riding on the 309/310 along Botany Rd and the 348. I'm thinking of fully low floor with mostly longitudinal flip up seating and have about 75% of the customers stand with two doors. Since nearly every morning along Botany Rd after Gardeners Rd the bus is full unable to pick up but the bus pretty much empties out 10 mins later at Green Square. Same can be said for the 348 between UNSW and Zetland.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:43 pm

VivalaBuses wrote:Tonyp, have you seen this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... bus_stops/

The comments make for an interesting read

Many thanks VivalaBuses, spot on! That photo is epic, exactly the "mosh pit" syndrome I've seen on very busy services with standees. Nobody will go past the second door in case they can't get off again, nobody will climb the stairs. The comments are in the "blind freddy and his dog-obvious" category. The public can see it but the industry can't. I can't say too much nowadays, I'm getting a reputation as a stuck record and responses from industry people are basically that everything works OK as it is, it's not an issue, that doesn't work in Australia mate, so nothing is going to change any time soon. We're just building tram lines instead apparently. It's the bus industry's loss in the end.

Edit: I spent time reading all the comments and I'd commend them beginning to end to anybody (or agency) in the bus industry to see how your customers view you.

Volgren body on a Scania N series chassis would be a good starting point and work up from there. Still a way off European practice but at least a decent start. Also more 3 door artics and again Volgren on the N series chassis.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby mandonov » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Only the people in denial think you're a stuck record.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:02 pm

mandonov wrote:Only the people in denial think you're a stuck record.

Even I think I'm a stuck record! :lol:
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:36 pm

mandonov wrote:Only the people in denial think you're a stuck record.

And they are right here. Besides, repetition is really how people learn anything.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:54 pm

Found an interesting timelapse of some large crowd movement with buses in Aachen! A mix of larger Citaro G (18m), Citaro GL (20m) and Van Hool AGG300 (25m) buses being used: https://www.facebook.com/euregiobus/vid ... 037389629/

I was having a browse and noticed that MAN Australia has updated their "city bus" section of the website with the difference in available models clearly distinguished:
- Elite C130 (Low entry A69 chassis 'complete' bus bodied by MCV)
- A24 NG 323F (Low floor articulated chassis)
- A22 NL 323F (Low floor rigid chassis) - This is a new one to appear on their website!
- A95 ND 323F (Double deck low floor chssis) - Also new, but not surprising given the recent orders for them in Sydney for B-Line and Forest.
- RC2 LE 19.320 (Low entry rigid chassis) - New on the website, but replaced previous low entry offerings.

So Scania and MAN in Australia both seem to now publicly indicate through their respective websites that they can both offer fully low floor chassis in Australia.

There are two trials currently taking place (or soon to commence) in Singapore of a double-deck and single-deck three-door bus, both MAN's bodied by Gemilang using the 'Lion's City' design. You can obviously see some of the compromises that have been made to accomodate the third door - the unconventional location of it on the decker and the awkward step arrangement to avoid the drivetrain on the single-deck. But maybe it provides some hope that if this sparks the desire to introduce a large fleet of RHD three-door buses, that the market may respond by providing a more appropriate three-door RHD bus solution for Singapore. The flow on benefit there may be that neighbouring RHD countries would be able to introduce conventional three-door rigid buses onto busy routes if needed. I guess it'll be interesting to keep an eye on what happens. In the meantime, here's some photos from the LTA Facebook page:
Image
Image
Image
Photos of the single-deck three-door bus from the SMRT Facebook page:
Image
Image
A link to a walk-through video of the single-deck bus: https://www.facebook.com/SMRTCorpSG/vid ... 801682478/
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Stu » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:55 am

Great buses, it would appear much thought and foresight has been put into these concepts - which means that buses like these wont be hitting Sydney's streets anytime soon. The state will stay on course with the status-quo and then in 5 years time a bus or buses similar to the concepts will be released, lauded and claimed as a brand new idea to essentially re-invent the wheel.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Tonymercury » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:20 am

The decker is supposed to have two sets of stairs according to the Singapore media.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:16 am

I want to know if those plug doors increase dwell time. At last some modern buses with a modicum of style to excite the senses.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:48 am

Mr OC Benz wrote:Found an interesting timelapse of some large crowd movement with buses in Aachen! A mix of larger Citaro G (18m), Citaro GL (20m) and Van Hool AGG300 (25m) buses being used: https://www.facebook.com/euregiobus/vid ... 037389629/

It looks like the buses are fitted out as vacuum cleaners that hoover the crowds up off the footpath as they stop! But yeah, they work like trams which is the way to go.

Mr OC Benz wrote:I was having a browse and noticed that MAN Australia has updated their "city bus" section of the website with the difference in available models clearly distinguished:
- Elite C130 (Low entry A69 chassis 'complete' bus bodied by MCV)
- A24 NG 323F (Low floor articulated chassis)
- A22 NL 323F (Low floor rigid chassis) - This is a new one to appear on their website!
- A95 ND 323F (Double deck low floor chssis) - Also new, but not surprising given the recent orders for them in Sydney for B-Line and Forest.
- RC2 LE 19.320 (Low entry rigid chassis) - New on the website, but replaced previous low entry offerings.

So Scania and MAN in Australia both seem to now publicly indicate through their respective websites that they can both offer fully low floor chassis in Australia.


Well spotted. I noticed the Scania one some time ago (N series) and no doubt MB will come to the party if they decide it's worth doing a 2.5 m wide body after the Brisbane trial. Of course Australian agencies and operators will ignore this and diligently keep buying the low-entry versions rather than risk getting anything new fangled. These innovations have to start in Perth Mr OCB, get cracking in WA! The rest of the national flock will follow some years later.

The couple of people inside the industry I've spoken to about low floor are very negative about it - huge conservatism. It's like what my dad said about working in the DGT many decades ago - you have to wait for these people to die off or retire before you can start innovating (and so he left them for the private sector!). Nothing has obviously changed since then. The other funny thing is that when by some miracle a prototype innovation does appear (like the Bustech electric bus with its mostly low floor, which we haven't seen since) they announce it like it's a sensational new invention and Australia leads the world. Give us a break.

It's obvious that Scania, MB and MAN are just cautiously dipping their toes in the RHD low floor market because they haven't done the major engineering involved in shifting the drivetrain across to the other side. So there's no prospect yet of a low floor (stepless) back door behind the rear axle. The best you're going to get is three doors with two between the two axles like the Blue Emu buses at Sydney Airport. This is a long way better than nothing and would be ideal for busy services like the Perth CATs and Gong Shuttle (if all-door boarding allowed). They just need to top it off with one of these low floor chassis to get rid of that high gangway at the back.

There are low entry buses in Europe like that Singapore one with the third door in a stairwell at the back, but used more for longer distance services. It strikes me as a clumsy compromise.
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:13 am

Without mortality, we would have never progress. Death is the ultimate mechanism for ridding the dead wood.
Love that innovative centre entry/ exit / staircase placement on the MAN decker.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby BAMBAM » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:30 pm

Tonymercury wrote:The decker is supposed to have two sets of stairs according to the Singapore media.


They do, shows in the first picture with the stairs behind the driver and the third stairs behind the third door.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:13 pm

The third door on the single decker rigid looks like it's slanted like the Bustech from the centre door, why bother sometimes?

It's a bit of a step back from their "100% low floor" bus, they should have just added the third door in the front-centre.

Besides, I was in Singapore in late Feb (as an extended stop over back from Delhi) and everyone there boarded from the front door from what I saw.

At least in Delhi, everyone boarded from all doors if you had a bus pass and people who needed to buy on board would get on in the middle to get tickets from the conductor, the buses in Delhi weren't that bad although they were all low entries.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Frosty » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:27 pm

Damn the solution is already here it's the New Bus for London just modify it slightly with a rear door instead of platform. I went and looked at Volvo's website they offer Volvo B7RLE (Euro 5), B9TL double decker, B5R LE Hybrid, B8RLE (Euro 6). So they're not interested in getting at the moment in the fully low floor market in Australia. What happened to STA and the Volvo B5RLE Hybrid they were meant to trial?

Interestingly STA had the Scania K310UA Custom Coaches, Scania N310UA, Volvo B12BLEA Euro 5 CB60 Evo 2, Volvo B12BLEA Euro 3 CB60 for metrobus trial. But I am amused why did Custom coaches changed their bendy design in the CB60 Evo 2 and CB80 to only have a front door low floor they somehow went backwards. I guess another reason I guess the Scania N310UA wasn't chosen maybe it wasn't enough horsepower or Scania couldn't offer more hp. At least they went with Volgren for those 150 artics.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:28 pm

Frosty wrote:Interestingly STA had the Scania K310UA Custom Coaches.

Which they chose to body as a low entry instead of low floor it is. Maybe Custom Coaches haven't developed a method to body a low floor, in which case the job should have gone to Volgren. At least they didn't get Bustech to do it. They would have probably made it high floor throughout. :roll:
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:31 pm

tonyp wrote:There are low entry buses in Europe like that Singapore one with the third door in a stairwell at the back, but used more for longer distance services. It strikes me as a clumsy compromise.

The Singapore one is actually a low floor A22 chassis, but yes, engineered for a third door in a LHD model. If it was an LE model, it could also have the third door, but the steps would actually be higher. The low-entry buses in Europe with a third door at the back seems to be mostly a Scandinavian thing (and mostly on the longer 14.7m models). I haven't been to the region myself yet, but I think it mostly stems back to historical reasons, but maybe the built form and longer distances while still having high demand for buses also necessitates this.

Swift wrote:I want to know if those plug doors increase dwell time. At last some modern buses with a modicum of style to excite the senses.

The 'plug' doors are very much standard these days on a lot of Western European buses. Funnily enough from my observations, I reckon they are set to open/close much faster than the standard inward sliding doors used throughout Australia. So dwell time would actually be even less. Not to mention the added bonus of increased capacity and less incidents with passengers getting caught or injured in the doorway.

rogf24 wrote:The third door on the single decker rigid looks like it's slanted like the Bustech from the centre door, why bother sometimes?

It's a bit of a step back from their "100% low floor" bus, they should have just added the third door in the front-centre.

Besides, I was in Singapore in late Feb (as an extended stop over back from Delhi) and everyone there boarded from the front door from what I saw.

The purpose of the trial is to actually encourage people to move further towards the back of the bus among other things. The additional third door and extra standing room provided will encourage this and thus provide a better distribution flow. While it may fit in more neatly, it wouldn't really serve that purpose putting the extra door between the two axles (note tonyp's comments on the Carbridge ones for example). As for the slanted floor and steps, there is not much that can be done until manufacturers move to provide a solution that negates the need for this compromised design. At least there are still two doors with a flat floor (compared to the Bustech).

In other news closer to home...
Transport Canberra wrote:Rear door exiting and boarding - all services

Commencing Monday 27 March 2017


A trial of rear door exits has been occurring across Red Rapid services. This trial has proven to be a success and as a result effective Monday 27 March 2017 customers can now exit the bus using the rear door at all stops on all services.

Using MyWay? Tap off using the front or rear door MyWay card reader as you get off the bus.

Customers are encouraged to make use of the rear doors where possible to help speed up travel times.

All door boarding

MyWay customers will be able to board from the front and rear doors at major bus stops and stations and at all Rapid stops.

A reminder that Transport Officer checks of MyWay and cash tickets are being conducted across the bus network. You are required to show your MyWay card, cash ticket and proof of any concession on request. Failure to do so could result in a warning notice or fine.

More information call 13 17 10.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:48 pm

Quite a big change in position for ACTION.
Making an announcement that the centre doors will now be used as standard for exiting seems a bit ludicrous to me
when it was just the done thing growing up in Sydney during the 1980s and early 90s.
Has ACTION (Jackson) always been this conservative with centre exit use, even stretching back to Dept of the Interior days?
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