Use of Back Door on Buses

[deepthought2006]

Whether the incidents that I described above are isolated and/or infrequent, I don't know. I just know that they happened. I believe that they happened exactly as described. More importantly, if they happened once (or twice or even more times than I'm aware of), those incidents can happen again if the same circumstances arise, particularly with so many seemingly unmodified buses running around. No union prompting then or now - I have no involvement whatsoever with the RTBU these days, Tony. It is a matter of safety, whether or not the union is (or was) involved. No bs here.

[Glen]

By comparison, I wonder how ZVV in Zurich can operate 5 door double articulated buses with all door boarding and push-button opening !

Seems like another world away.

http://transitophile.com/chango/wp-cont ... _31bus.jpg

[Swift]

^^Same livery as a certain world beating transit operator .

[Glen]

^^Same livery as a certain world beating transit operator .

Indeed ............... and a bit of historical context, the 31 was created as a result of the only tram route in Zurich ever converted to buses, and trolley buses at that, in the mid 1950's before they realised the error of their ways (it was the old tram 1 and part of tram 2).

Oh, where we might have been today!

[tonyp]

By comparison, I wonder how ZVV in Zurich can operate 5 door double articulated buses with all door boarding and push-button opening !

Seems like another world away.

http://transitophile.com/chango/wp-cont ... _31bus.jpg

I've moved beyond referencing Europe as it's so widespread there and the response here might be "oh but that's overseas". Now we have a situation where it's practised in various services in every Australian state and territory except NSW, NT and Tasmania. The latter two would have almost no issue with moving crowds and keeping buses moving. NSW on the other hand has the biggest issues with this in Australia. Furthermore, in a double-standard, there is apparently no problem with all-door loading on NSW trams. NSW is right out on an increasingly ridiculous-looking limb on this.

[Tonymercury]

NSW is right out on an increasingly ridiculous-looking limb on this.

And hopefully sawing off the limb behind them.

[gld59]

and I know in detail of two cases also where the emergency door rebound function did not work. At all. In one of those cases it was as a direct result of an unauthorised, unsupervised, centre door boarding.

No, the entrapment might have been the result of "unauthorised, unsupervised, centre door boarding" (but of course also the door rebound function not working), but if the failure of the rebound function was caused by unauthorised boarding there would be something rather more disturbing going on.

gld

[deepthought2006]

My bad (as they say). You are quite correct, gld59. My "it" should have read "the entrapment". Well spotted.

I don't think that the rebound-system failure was caused directly by the centre door boarding, either. More likely the failure was caused by faulty sensors(s) and/or circuit(s) in the anti-entrapment system.

Of course, had the passenger(s?) not boarded unsupervised and unauthorised through the centre doors in that bus, unseen by the driver, at that location, at that time of day, in those particular weather conditions (these comments referring to the lack of a video monitoring system in that bus, the deep shadowing of the kerbside area on a bright sunny afternoon with the offside of the bus (including the driver and the road ahead) bathed in bright sunshine and the kerb and nearside of the bus in relative darkness, these extremes of light and shade seemingly affecting the driver's view, plus the crowding in the bus and on the footpath resulting in the difficulty that the driver claims to have had using the four mirrors available, particularly the two centre doors mirrors with their combined very limited angle of view and their ineffectiveness when used in dim light and particularly if the bus was crowded), the entrapment might not have occurred. As always with any incident such as that, there was a collection of factors that together contributed to the problem occurring. If any of those contributors had been avoided, the problem probably would not have occurred.

So it is a case now of me trying to highlight and eliminate through comments in this forum as many of those contributing factors as possible. The most significant fixable problem to me is the lack of a centre door video monitoring system in most STA buses. The mirrors on their own simply aren't sufficient and therefore centre door loading while unsupervised in crowded conditions is an accident waiting to happen.

[tonyp]

those particular weather conditions (these comments referring to the lack of a video monitoring system in that bus, the deep shadowing of the kerbside area on a bright sunny afternoon with the offside of the bus (including the driver and the road ahead) bathed in bright sunshine and the kerb and nearside of the bus in relative darkness, these extremes of light and shade seemingly affecting the driver's view, plus the crowding in the bus and on the footpath resulting in the difficulty that the driver claims to have had using the four mirrors available, particularly the two centre doors mirrors with their combined very limited angle of view and their ineffectiveness when used in dim light and particularly if the bus was crowded), the entrapment might not have occurred. As always with any incident such as that, there was a collection of factors that together contributed to the problem occurring. If any of those contributors had been avoided, the problem probably would not have occurred.

Sydney light and weather conditions must be absolutely unique as they don't seem to be a factor in Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Canberra, Brisbane and scores of cities overseas, but there you go.

I actually hear and value what you say deepthought2006 - and agree about the need for CCTV and that the issues should be sorted between the agency/operator and unions before implementation. I just have a problem with the whole notion of Sydney being somehow different from the rest of Australia and the world every time some issue comes up, it sets my bs-detection meter off.

[Swift]

What is the difference with Melbourne trams that have operated with omo for 20 years. Do the rules of time and space work differently between vehicles with bogeys and those with tyres?
Removing the culture of blaming the driver by default is the real challenge in this game and I don't see that being changed until the current personnel are cast out.
From what I have read here, TSA's fresh start is severely compromised by seeing many of the same identities being used to supervise their phase in, so I hold little hope of much positive change.

[tonyp]

Of course Melbourne tried front door boarding with its trams back in the 70s and the results were ridiculous.

How Sydney has "progressed" from this (yes that's all doors both sides!):


(Sydney-eye blogspot)

to this - roughly same-capacity vehicle as the above but with some sort of blockage going on here, rather reminiscent of trying to empty a swimming pool through a garden hose:


(Daniel Bowen)

[burrumbus]

At least there is an artic on the 333 ,Tony,rather than a VSTM.
It really does make you wonder ??
I wonder what sort of service gap there was to build up that crowd from the one stop on Campbell Parade ?? 10-15 MINUTES,I reckon.

[Swift]

That's why I walk to the northern end of the beach!!

[Frosty]

At least there is an artic on the 333 ,Tony,rather than a VSTM.
It really does make you wonder ??
I wonder what sort of service gap there was to build up that crowd from the one stop on Campbell Parade ?? 10-15 MINUTES,I reckon.

That pic from Daniel Bowen was during the Sculptures by the Sea exhibition so hence the large crowds. I noticed people just crowd around and don't queue in the 'orderly' fashion like at BJI or Wynyard.

Sometimes it can be faster from Nth Bondi to get the 379 into BJ instead of 333/380/381 considering the long dwell times Campbell Parade.

[Glen]

What is the current official latest practice with all-door boarding in Sydney?

I see signs at some CBD stops (not mentioning times?), but is it still only happening in peak hours and only when supervised?

[Swift]

What is the current official latest practice with all-door boarding in Sydney?

I see signs at some CBD stops (not mentioning times?), but is it still only happening in peak hours and only when supervised?

Yes, only with child care workers supervising. Pity they couldn't send any to Bondi Beach on any given weekend. I was witness to a slightly less severe situation like the one pictured above, and I was smh at the sight of a three door bus only using the front set.

[tonyp]

At least there is an artic on the 333

It's just so frustrating that they actually have these marvellous buses that can process and accommodate large crowds pretty-much as well as a traditional 15 metre tram (and the move to smartcard fare-collection has finally fully enabled that capability) and they just throttle that potential with such brutal, small-minded stupidity. That photo encapsulates it all. That bus could easily swallow that whole crowd very quickly and be up and away, if it was allowed to.

[rogf24]

I remember getting home on New Years Eve earlier this year in Sydney and it was very crowded, people were overflowing out of the footpath and the bus wasn't even aligned with kerb but my driver was nice and opened the both the back and front at the first stop (to be precise, he opened the front door only first but then decided to open the other doors a few seconds later) and everyone went streaming right onto all doors.

And (excuse me for repeating this) despite the bus not being appropriately aligned with the kerb, the huge crowds spilling out of the footpath and no supervisors (well I couldn't see any for my bus or anywhere else), everyone got on board through all doors safely and the bus departed safely.

[Glen]

I've noticed at QVB the main sign says rear door boarding stop, but on the shelter sign it still says only 1600 to 1900 weekdays when a Marshall is present.

Sigh............

[tonyp]

On the Trams Downunder forum today, a member has posted that he was observing a crowd waiting for a tram-substitution bus in Ostrava, Czech Republic. He counted about 175 people boarding one of those 5-door SOR artics in 35 seconds, whoa to go. Unfortunately his video of the scene was corrupted. He did note that the crowd hustled aboard rather than our local habit of dawdling!

I do feel that the dawdling is yet another bad habit encouraged by years of front-door loading. If the average dwell time for the old Sydney trams was said to be 8 seconds and old film footage bears that out with scenes of people pouring in and out, then some bad habits have certainly been encouraged by the bus regime since then (not to mention double deck trains!). As population grows exponentially, these poor practices now come back to bite us on the bum.

Fully, evenly and effectively-loaded 5-door, fully low-floor SOR NB18:



Edit: Correction, that observer has checked advised that it was actually a four-door Solaris artic. With one less door, the loading time is even more impressive.

[moa999]

I think the worst operation has got to be at the SCG post games.
Despite having a fairly expensive (and badly designed - eg. the chained queuing area or the sign slots have never been used) set of bus gates, and having a number of marshalls, the organsiation is simply useless.

They only board front door, and at most two buses at a time.
At a minimum the Central (1) route should be boarding three buses and all doors.

Ideally arctic, regular, regular. And have them move in lock-step.
So when the arctic is full, main marshall makes the call, and all three buses move off, and another three from the waiting area into their place.

The Circular Quay (3) route is less hectic, and at least now uses the ED, after many years of using Oxford St (will be interesting to see whether they keep this route going post CSELR - would certainly be quicker)

[Swift]

That would never work in Sydney. It would conflict with TNSW success mitigation policy.

[burrumbus]

I think the worst operation has got to be at the SCG post games.
Despite having a fairly expensive (and badly designed - eg. the chained queuing area or the sign slots have never been used) set of bus gates, and having a number of marshalls, the organsiation is simply useless.

They only board front door, and at most two buses at a time.
At a minimum the Central (1) route should be boarding three buses and all doors.

Ideally arctic, regular, regular. And have them move in lock-step.
So when the arctic is full, main marshall makes the call, and all three buses move off, and another three from the waiting area into their place.

The Circular Quay (3) route is less hectic, and at least now uses the ED, after many years of using Oxford St (will be interesting to see whether they keep this route going post CSELR - would certainly be quicker)

Yes ,I've seen the SCG after game operations ,moa999, and I would have to agree completely.Why load one bus at a time only through the front door.Ineffiecent and for the pax a woeful service.Also in terms of productivity.A quick/load /unload procedure means quicker bus turn arounds and the abilty to move more pax per shift ,probably with less fleet.
Again makes you wonder.

[burrumbus]

Would'nt an artic bus like the one pictured work wonders on corridors like Bondi Beach.swift-you are correct !!!

[Glen]

Would'nt an artic bus like the one pictured work wonders on corridors like Bondi Beach.swift-you are correct !!!

I think they had them once upon a time, but they were green-and-yellow and had a different join in the middle.