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Inner West Light Rail observations

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:08 pm

Needs a turnback off the running lines and the only one is at Lilyfield and it always seems to have trams parked in it. I think they have timetabling issues too (Esp if trams are running out of schedule), conflicting movements require timetable precision.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Swift » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:22 pm

**Newsflash** the old Rozelle goods yard has enough room to land a 747 into. They can build a turn back now!
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Frosty » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:54 pm

tonyp wrote:Needs a turnback off the running lines and the only one is at Lilyfield and it always seems to have trams parked in it. I think they have timetabling issues too (Esp if trams are running out of schedule), conflicting movements require timetable precision.


Surely that isn’t a major issue they can move the tram elsewhere. Conflicting movements are never ideal preferably it would be a centre turnback of some sort.
Pretty sure the Rozelle Rail Yards are about to undergo Westconnex works so it would rule that option out.

If the buses ran on-time & were reliable in areas that surrounded the light rail stops it would reduce the pressure on the LR.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:18 pm

Not a single bus route runs along the City West Link. Yes I know buses mostly run along long-established routes and this is a newer road. But so many buses from that area could reach the city so much faster that way instead of via Parramatta Rd. I think there would be a lot of scope for improvement of buses i this area if you focused on the city west link as a trunk.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Swift » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:31 am

LR must see buses as competition, hence no services along CWL, though would be a good idea.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:43 am

Frosty wrote:Surely that isn’t a major issue they can move the tram elsewhere. Conflicting movements are never ideal preferably it would be a centre turnback of some sort.
Pretty sure the Rozelle Rail Yards are about to undergo Westconnex works so it would rule that option out.

Unfortunately everything seems to be a major issue for TfNSW when it comes to designing, building and operating tramways. Yes a centre turnback between the tracks would be ideal and they've learnt that lesson at least in the CSELR design. There is room for that solution at Lilyfield but they seemed intent at the time on a short-term need to park spare trams out of the way. They and their consultants never seem to be able to think their way through to ultimate solutions (Dulwich Hill terminus is another example), it's like they can't think past the end of their noses. There's a distinct lack of expertise specifically skilled in the unique requirements of tramways (which are completely and utterly different from railways, which nobody here seems to comprehend), compounded by a stubborn refusal to learn anything from where that expertise lies, like in Central Europe or even Melbourne. This will sort itself out in many years time but it's an agonising process in the meantime.

Anyway, the other issue is operation. You can't deftly insert short-workings into a timetable if that timetable isn't operated to schedule. That just leads to chaos. A tramway operated in its own exclusive ROW or in its own lanes should run like a Swiss watch, no matter how big the crowds. Most tram operators around the world would give their right arm for an operating environment so quarantined from mixed traffic and crossing conflicts. Yet they manage to end up out of timetable. I can think of a couple of reasons why, but one shouldn't have to tell them. Both TfNSW and Transdev are supposed to be the experts that we the taxpayers fund with good money to manage competently.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:03 am

Many of the LR stops have bus "competition" nearby, but not directly along the route.

The LR has opened up areas for development that would have been unlikely even with a similar bus route.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby gilberations » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:19 am

In an ideal scenario (where > = feeds into)

Bus > ferry
Bus > light rail
Bus > BRT
Bus > heavy rail
Bus > light rail > heavy rail
Bus > light rail > bus
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 pm

tonyp wrote:Anyway, the other issue is operation. You can't deftly insert short-workings into a timetable if that timetable isn't operated to schedule. That just leads to chaos. A tramway operated in its own exclusive ROW or in its own lanes should run like a Swiss watch, no matter how big the crowds. Most tram operators around the world would give their right arm for an operating environment so quarantined from mixed traffic and crossing conflicts. Yet they manage to end up out of timetable. I can think of a couple of reasons why, but one shouldn't have to tell them. Both TfNSW and Transdev are supposed to be the experts that we the taxpayers fund with good money to manage competently.

Even without timetable adherence, how difficult would it be to run a Lilyfield shortworker from Central a couple of minutes ahead of a DH service, put it in the siding, then release it to operate a couple of minutes in front of the next inbound service from DH. The whole network is monitored, so it should not be difficult for a controller to manipulate the reliefs to suit conditions.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:14 pm

boronia wrote:Even without timetable adherence, how difficult would it be to run a Lilyfield shortworker from Central a couple of minutes ahead of a DH service, put it in the siding, then release it to operate a couple of minutes in front of the next inbound service from DH. The whole network is monitored, so it should not be difficult for a controller to manipulate the reliefs to suit conditions.

Yes, one would think. What could possibly go wrong? ;)
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:15 pm

gilberations wrote:In an ideal scenario (where > = feeds into)

Bus > ferry
Bus > light rail
Bus > BRT
Bus > heavy rail
Bus > light rail > heavy rail
Bus > light rail > bus

Since the 1940s, the bus lobby has educated us to think the reverse of all that - except that the words "light rail" were removed altogether from the equation. Buses can do everything, didn't you know?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Swift » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:33 pm

tonyp wrote:Buses can do everything, didn't you know?

Slower and with vastly inferior ride quality. I nearly stumbled the other day on an 0500LE thanks to a gear change!
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 pm

Swift wrote:
tonyp wrote:Buses can do everything, didn't you know?

Slower and with vastly inferior ride quality. I nearly stumbled the other day on an 0500LE thanks to a gear change!

Well they're only slower as a result of a certain entrenched boarding practice at stops, often combined with not enough doors. Correct that and you have the same or better average speed. Ride quality can be brought up to quite a good standard but of course it's never going to be as good as a vehicle on rails except on roads to a billiard table standard. Electrification of buses will improve that even more.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Frosty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:06 pm

tonyp wrote:Since the 1940s, the bus lobby has educated us to think the reverse of all that - except that the words "light rail" were removed altogether from the equation. Buses can do everything, didn't you know?


And from the 1940s the car lobby has made us believe that cars are ideal feeder services.

I'm interested in the operating costs of light rail in comparison to buses ?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Frosty wrote:
I'm interested in the operating costs of light rail in comparison to buses ?

I'd have to dig all that up again but the general picture is that the operating costs of a standard tramway (that is without some costly extra like APS) is less than that of a matching bus service, but of course there has to be an initial capital cost in building the infrastructure of a tramway (which buses would also incur if busways are built, but otherwise their infrastructure costs are absorbed in the general roads costs).

After years of denying that electric trams and trolleybuses are cheaper to run than diesel buses, the bus industry now provides a little clue as to the truth in suddenly promoting the much cheaper operating costs of electric buses compared to diesel buses. Maintaining and fueling a diesel power system is certainly expensive compared to running an electric drive. Of course there is the question of the deal on the electricity rates that the operator can negotiate and/or, nowadays, the cost of buying, maintaining and cyclical replacement of a battery system.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:04 am

https://transportnsw.info/news/2018/ext ... l-services
Extra Inner West Light Rail Services
Monday 30 July 2018

From 6 August additional Inner West Light Rail services will be introduced. New services will provide more frequent services that are less crowded and reduce wait times.

Between 10am to 2pm, extra services will improve frequency from 13 to 12 minutes, in line with the schedule already in place on the popular Wednesday services.

The change will mean a 12 minute frequency on all weekdays between 10am and 3pm.

The afternoon peak will be extended to offer services every 8 minutes from 3pm to 7pm.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:57 am

tonyp wrote:I'd have to dig all that up again but the general picture is that the operating costs of a standard tramway (that is without some costly extra like APS) is less than that of a matching bus service, but of course there has to be an initial capital cost in building the infrastructure of a tramway (which buses would also incur if busways are built, but otherwise their infrastructure costs are absorbed in the general roads costs).


Additionally, trams may have a longer life than buses.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:18 am

Tonymercury wrote:
Additionally, trams may have a longer life than buses.

True - and it can be noted that trolleybuses typically have a longer life than diesel buses and so probably will battery-electric buses. Electric traction has many advantages.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Swift » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:52 pm

The government would have probably operated AEC buses beyond 1979 if they had retained both the beloved trolley systems we once had in Sydney.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby moa999 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:37 pm

Tonymercury wrote:Additionally, trams may have a longer life than buses.


Albeit Variotrams only lasted 1997-2015
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Bovways » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:23 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:https://transportnsw.info/news/2018/extra-inner-west-light-rail-services
Extra Inner West Light Rail Services
Monday 30 July 2018

From 6 August additional Inner West Light Rail services will be introduced. New services will provide more frequent services that are less crowded and reduce wait times.

Between 10am to 2pm, extra services will improve frequency from 13 to 12 minutes, in line with the schedule already in place on the popular Wednesday services.

The change will mean a 12 minute frequency on all weekdays between 10am and 3pm.

The afternoon peak will be extended to offer services every 8 minutes from 3pm to 7pm.


Yes - between 10am and 2pm that's one extra trip every two hours :shock:
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Swift » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:45 pm

12 minutes is still pathetic, but not as much as bothering to announce it like it's revolutionary.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:02 pm

Bovways wrote:Extra Inner West Light Rail Services
Monday 30 July 2018

From 6 August additional Inner West Light Rail services will be introduced. New services will provide more frequent services that are less crowded and reduce wait times.

Between 10am to 2pm, extra services will improve frequency from 13 to 12 minutes, in line with the schedule already in place on the popular Wednesday services.

The change will mean a 12 minute frequency on all weekdays between 10am and 3pm.

The afternoon peak will be extended to offer services every 8 minutes from 3pm to 7pm.


Yes - between 10am and 2pm that's one extra trip every two hours :shock:[/quote]
Actually 1.5 trips over 4 hours. How generous.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby swtt » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:44 pm

It could well make a material difference between the service immediately before and immediately after the said increase, but otherwise, meh! A Press Release moment.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:35 am

Can you identify the additional trip?
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