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Inner West Light Rail observations

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:27 am

mandonov wrote:I actually wouldn't be surprised if the two LR stops get renamed to 'ICC Convention' and 'ICC Exhibition', if only just to promote that brand more.

I hope not. There is far too much of that sort of thing these days.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:47 pm

Took the IWRL for the first time in a while. Can't believe the number of speed restrictions. Following was observed:

* slowed to 20 km/hr for every platform (why??)
* slowed to 15 km/hr for every set of points - heather facing or trailing , all lined straight - why?
* at the points connecting to the single track section at Dulwich Hill, came to a complete stop! The points were already lined correctly - not sure if there was an adverse signal indication as I'm not quite sure how the signals work here.
* proceeded at a snail's 10 km/hr from Dulwich Hill points to the platform
* there was a temporary speed restriction near Petersham somewhere.
* the top speed appeared to be only 60 km/he even once clear of all of the above

Really doesn't bode well for future light rail operation in Sydney
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Frosty » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:56 pm

Could explain why the IWLR has been consistently at least running a 2-3 mins late on every service. Would anyone have an update I heard on those graffiti attacked carriages in the sidings near Convention.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:58 pm

Go to the Railpage thread in the Tram/Light Rail section called Hay/george sts intersection explains a bit more.

The under construction whatever the abbreviation is for the new light rail in Sydney CBD will be built slightly smaller than the existing Dulwich Hill light rail tracks:!: (To put it simply, in most cases incompatible (except when needed for "rescues" etc).
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:08 pm

Frosty wrote:Could explain why the IWLR has been consistently at least running a 2-3 mins late on every service. .

Running late in relation to what timetable?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby matthewg » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:01 am

jpp42 wrote:Took the IWRL for the first time in a while. Can't believe the number of speed restrictions. Following was observed:

* slowed to 20 km/hr for every platform (why??)

Standard procedure since the line opened - this one is because there might be people on the pedestrian crossings. The people who set these limits show heavy rail thinking.

* slowed to 15 km/hr for every set of points - whether facing or trailing, all lined straight - why?


This is new and started a couple of months ago. None of the 'usual suspects' know why, only that a directive has been issued to proceed slowly over all points. This is especially odd as all the points have railway style facing point locks and protective signals that would indicate if the lock wasn't in place. With all that heavy rail style locking there is no reason the trams can't cross any facing point at line speed.

* at the points connecting to the single track section at Dulwich Hill, came to a complete stop! The points were already lined correctly - not sure if there was an adverse signal indication as I'm not quite sure how the signals work here.

It's often the case that the incoming tram has to wait for the previous to depart, although if the points were correct, that wouldn't have been the case. Possibly the driver stopped out of habit and then realised the terminus was clear.


* proceeded at a snail's 10 km/hr from Dulwich Hill points to the platform
* there was a temporary speed restriction near Petersham somewhere.
* the top speed appeared to be only 60 km/he even once clear of all of the above


The top speed I think is 80km/hr, but very few spots this is allowed, posted speeds on the 'open' track seem to mostly vary between 50 and 60km/hr.

I haven't ridden the line for a while, it's possible whatever made them institute the 15km speed over all points also removed the 70 and 80km/hr sections.


As for the timetable (on the trip planner), it's a complete work of fiction. The tram operator claims it's a 'turn up and go service' and timetables are not needed. But something needed to be loaded into the travel planner. I've never known a tram to actually follow the times in the travel planner. I don't know if this is because they simply cannot follow the published timetable, or they are following some completely different diagram than the published one for actual operation.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:47 am

matthewg wrote:
As for the timetable (on the trip planner), it's a complete work of fiction. The tram operator claims it's a 'turn up and go service' and timetables are not needed. But something needed to be loaded into the travel planner. I've never known a tram to actually follow the times in the travel planner. I don't know if this is because they simply cannot follow the published timetable, or they are following some completely different diagram than the published one for actual operation.

Yet whenever I see some official press on this, IWLR is claimed to have on-time running percentage in the high nineties. There must be a big +- allowance then.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby moa999 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:45 pm

matthewg wrote:As for the timetable (on the trip planner), it's a complete work of fiction.


Not completely. It did correctly show when some of the afternoon services commenced at the depot rather than Central.

What I don't understand is why they don't switch back some services at Wentworth Park given Central-Pyrmont is the busy section.

Have a new driver waiting at the platform and switch tracks just prior to the station (existing crossover)
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Geo101 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:55 pm

moa999 wrote:What I don't understand is why they don't switch back some services at Wentworth Park given Central-Pyrmont is the busy section.

They could spend some extra dollars and turn right at Harrold Park, continue down Wattle Street, turn left at MacAurthur St and join up to the existing tracks at Darling Drive, perhaps making that point an interchange for those who want to go to the casino. The trip to the city could be reduced by 10 or more minutes.

If you type in the trip planner Glebe Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail, it actually suggests you walk from Wentworth Park Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail !!

https://postimg.org/image/54spdh6o9/

And why couldn't they perhaps relocate the Lewisham West Light Rail and Lewisham Station to a new interconnect point where the line cross, capturing more commuters and perhaps help the congestion on the Inner West line.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:14 pm

Geo101 wrote:They could spend some extra dollars and turn right at Harrold Park, continue down Wattle Street, turn left at MacAurthur St and join up to the existing tracks at Darling Drive, perhaps making that point an interchange for those who want to go to the casino. The trip to the city could be reduced by 10 or more minutes.

Assuming you mean Wentworth Park, there are some significant grades in that part of Ultimo, Macarthur St even has a section that's just stairs. There's no way a modern light rail could make that grade (never mind that trams of the old days managed to get down to Balmain East Wharf or other steep areas).

If you type in the trip planner Glebe Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail, it actually suggests you walk from Wentworth Park Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail !!

https://postimg.org/image/54spdh6o9/

That's hilarious, good find.

And why couldn't they perhaps relocate the Lewisham West Light Rail and Lewisham Station to a new interconnect point where the line cross, capturing more commuters and perhaps help the congestion on the Inner West line.


Not sure exactly what you're expecting here. Relocate the Lewisham station platforms themselves further west, to be closer to the line crossing? You must be dreaming.

The connection could be improved by building a footpath through the east side of light rail right of way to Longport St, I guess it would need to ascend steps which probably means they ruled it out on accessibility grounds.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:17 pm

moa999 wrote:What I don't understand is why they don't switch back some services at Wentworth Park given Central-Pyrmont is the busy section.

Have a new driver waiting at the platform and switch tracks just prior to the station (existing crossover)


You know, it almost seems like the original builders of the line had a thought about this when they put cross overs in at John St Square and Wentworth Park. What's significant about those stations? They are one stop past major traffic generators - The Star and the Fish Market. What a coincidence! I think not... too bad the current operators can't be bothered to make better use of that design. I rather suspect that the overnight service to The Star only exists today as a legacy and would be discontinued soon anyway (the excuse will be that it doesn't connect with anything since the trains don't run at Central all night).
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:20 pm

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Matthew G.

matthewg wrote:
jpp42 wrote:* slowed to 20 km/hr for every platform (why??)

Standard procedure since the line opened - this one is because there might be people on the pedestrian crossings. The people who set these limits show heavy rail thinking.


Except that not all of these platforms has crossing at the entrance! And were pedestrian conflicts at crossings a big problem before the extension?

The top speed I think is 80km/hr, but very few spots this is allowed, posted speeds on the 'open' track seem to mostly vary between 50 and 60km/hr.

I seem to remember that they got up to 80 km/hr in the past in the Glebe tunnel, oddly enough one of the longest sections of straight track without a stop, but I forgot to double check that this time.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 pm

When I was browsing through the journey planner some time ago, I found you could get between some stops faster by bus than by tram, including the walks between the bus stops and tram platforms!

The Pyrmont shortcut from Wentworth Park to near the depot was first proposed by Garry Glazebrook some years back. It involved a cut underneath the western distributor. If course it would have been logical to build when that freeway was built but that involves too much foresight for Sydney. The idea was to have trams on the Pyrmont circuit terminating at Wentworth Park with an interchange to the fast route to the inner west and maybe even Victoria Rd.

Current max through Glebe tunnel is 80, but for only a few seconds it's not worth it. Far more productive to maximise acceleration and deceleration in and out of stops and thus maintain line speed as long as possible. Those limits approaching stops are stupid but then we're talking about organisations that know nothing about operating trams.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby hornetfig » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:25 pm

tonyp wrote:The Pyrmont shortcut from Wentworth Park to near the depot was first proposed by Garry Glazebrook some years back. It involved a cut underneath the western distributor. If course it would have been logical to build when that freeway was built but that involves too much foresight for Sydney.


Umm this exists. It's the Fig Street tunnel that replaces Fig Street between Wattle St and Harris St. When constructed as part of the southern arterial corridor there was no light rail line, but the freeway already extended to Bank Street and had for some years.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:32 pm

hornetfig wrote:
Umm this exists. It's the Fig Street tunnel that replaces Fig Street between Wattle St and Harris St. When constructed as part of the southern arterial corridor there was no light rail line, but the freeway already extended to Bank Street and had for some years.

No, that's further south, but they do cross paths around Harris St but the light rail cut would be below the Fig St ramp. The short cut would be basically under the western distributer from Wentworth Park stop to where the motorway crosses the IWLR beside Pyrmont St.

However I note on Google maps that a ruddy huge apartment block has been built smack bang on where Garry's alignment leaves IWLR at the vacant piece of land at Wentworth Park stop, so there goes that one, sabotaging viable extensions of IWLR. Good to see that silo town planning is still alive and well in Sydney. That one would be a hell of a lot more expensive to resume and demolish than the block of units in Surry Hills. It all lurches from stupidity to stupidity in NSW.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby BeauGiles » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:09 pm

Geo101 wrote:
If you type in the trip planner Glebe Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail, it actually suggests you walk from Wentworth Park Light Rail to Exhibition Centre Light Rail !!

https://postimg.org/image/54spdh6o9/


Perhaps due to the trackwork between The Star and Central...

https://imgur.com/a/yVDAb
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:29 pm

The trip planner comes up with some ridiculous suggestions at times.

To get from Kensington to Leichhardt Marketplace recently it suggested 3 separate buses and a walk from Norton St as one of the options. The m10 which provided a single "door to door" journey was not suggested.

On another occasion I had to get from Kingsford to Lilyfield. I realised that this would involve a change at Railway Square. But Mr TP decided I should catch a 393 to Moore Prk, walk across Anzac Pde to the bus roadway, catch a 374 to Foveaux St, then WALK around to Railway Square. When I later queried this "offer" they informed me that because of the tight connection, it would be quicker than staying on the original 393 all the way to Railway Square.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Liamena » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:13 pm

Look on the bright side. From Norton St to Marketplace is downhill. That place was pretty cool when it was the mega-franklins. That didn't last long, even shorter than Masters' Hardware.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Liamena » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:15 pm

Fig street is quite a lot steeper than Macarthur Street.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:16 am

jpp42 wrote:
moa999 wrote:What I don't understand is why they don't switch back some services at Wentworth Park given Central-Pyrmont is the busy section.

Have a new driver waiting at the platform and switch tracks just prior to the station (existing crossover)


You know, it almost seems like the original builders of the line had a thought about this when they put cross overs in at John St Square and Wentworth Park. What's significant about those stations? They are one stop past major traffic generators - The Star and the Fish Market. What a coincidence! I think not... too bad the current operators can't be bothered to make better use of that design. I rather suspect that the overnight service to The Star only exists today as a legacy and would be discontinued soon anyway (the excuse will be that it doesn't connect with anything since the trains don't run at Central all night).


The cross over at Wentworth Park is there because it was the original terminus of the line.

Terminating some services at Lilyfield might be easier because the trams can be taken off the main line to reverse and lay up. The housing development at Harold Park is an obvious patronage generator so additional services that far would be desirable.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby sunnyyan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:22 am

jpp42 wrote:* at the points connecting to the single track section at Dulwich Hill, came to a complete stop! The points were already lined correctly - not sure if there was an adverse signal indication as I'm not quite sure how the signals work here.

I think the signals are:
* double white=proceed
* white & red = caution/stop
I can't remember whether there is red only, but i think white and red is stop, because ive seen several times that white/red is display when a tram has just left.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby moa999 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:06 pm

Walked through Central tonight.

Both 'platforms' now have a 15m raised section and entire area has new yellow safety tiles on the edge. Two big blue disabled signs on the boarding platform.

To be honest it looks a bit weird. They would have been better raising the whole area to the same level and having the ramp in the passageways, rather than what looks like a two-humped camel!
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:33 am

moa999 wrote:rather than what looks like a two-humped camel!


Have the TfNSW transport 'experts' discovered 'camel trains'?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby matthewg » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:58 am

moa999 wrote:To be honest it looks a bit weird. They would have been better raising the whole area to the same level and having the ramp in the passageways, rather than what looks like a two-humped camel!


I thought that approach weird too. The humps are not an entire tram length long, so only the middle doors of an Urbos are covered. With the current trams and the smaller end doors, wheelchair users won't tend to use the front or rear door anyway, they will stick with the large ones, but if a Citadis 503 ever runs the service with its large end doors....

At any rate, there is still a risk someone with reduced mobility will trip and fall, especially if they boarded elsewhere with a 100% raised platform and don't realise at Central the end doors are not level with the platform.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:26 am

It looks like the wheelchair hump now actually matches the tram floor, which is more than can be said for any of the other stops.
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