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Inner West Light Rail observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby jpp42 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:57 pm

Glen wrote:By contrast the crossover at John St Square is on the Up side, so after midnight when trams run from Central to John St Sq, they terminate on the Down platform, reverse and then crossover to the Up line to take up service from The Star back to Central.


One difference is that John St Square is not advertised as having service at this time, so the moves to and from it are non-revenue . It's essentially a crossiver on the Down side of The Star - the presence of the John St Square platform is not wholly relevant. And with there being no further runs to the west, it doesn't impact any other services.

Certainly the presence of the island platform at Lilyfield to use for terminating services makes a lot of sense though. Too much sense for it to be implemented any time soon :(
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby flitter » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:07 pm

Whe I lived in Pyrmont you could ask the conductor for the tram to go as far as fishmarket after midnight and they'd generally do it. Has that stopped since the extension went in?
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby jpp42 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:13 pm

I think it was Wentworth Park that they used to extend to? That's the next crossover after John St Square. It's been a while since that was done, I think, but you can still stay on as far as John St Square. Not sure if that's officially allowed or just that the crew doesn't mind since they're going there anyway.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Geo101 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:35 am

TfNSW wrote:
Easing the squeeze: Up to 90 extra Inner West Light Rail services per week

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance has announced there will soon be up to 90 additional services per week during peak times on the Inner West Light Rail to cater for large increases in customer demand.

“An extra 3,700 people each day will be able to travel on light rail between Dulwich Hill and Central when the line is busiest.

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-r ... vices-week


I don't quite get these figures.

3700 extra spots in each peak period with up to 90 extra services.

Is that an extra 37k (M-F 10 peak periods @ 3700 per week) / 90 = 400+ people per service?

CAF wrote:Total passenger capacity 338

http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicio ... .php?p=248


If they are using the same vehicles, surely an extra 90 x 338 = 30k per week (~3000 extra spots per peak period).

TfNSW wrote:The extra services will cut waiting times and ensure customers can catch a light rail service every eight minutes instead of every ten minutes on weekdays between 8am and 9am and between 4pm and 6pm.

The afternoon peak will also be extended by an hour on weekdays from 6pm to 7pm, with services running every ten minutes.


So currently there is 10 minute intervals, going to 8 minutes, so 6 per hour -> 7.5 per hour = extra 3 services in the AM and perhaps 5 in the PM.

That's only an extra 40 services per week during peak hours, or are we talking 90 because they are counting bi-direction?

My figures (which are likely incorrect) mean about an extra 1500 seats for travellers in the peak hour direction, not 3700.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby tonyp » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:44 am

The capacity of the trams would be no more than about 250 and even that couldn't be feasibly reached with the present door arrangement. The CAF figure is marketing fantasy based on probably 8 ppsm.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:32 pm

jpp42 wrote:
Glen wrote:By contrast the crossover at John St Square is on the Up side, so after midnight when trams run from Central to John St Sq, they terminate on the Down platform, reverse and then crossover to the Up line to take up service from The Star back to Central.

One difference is that John St Square is not advertised as having service at this time, so the moves to and from it are non-revenue . It's essentially a crossiver on the Down side of The Star - the presence of the John St Square platform is not wholly relevant.

You are half right. :)

The Down services are advertised to John St Square. The Up services officially start from The Star.

I understand this has always been the case.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:34 pm

flitter wrote:Whe I lived in Pyrmont you could ask the conductor for the tram to go as far as fishmarket after midnight and they'd generally do it. Has that stopped since the extension went in?

I don't know, but the after-midnight frequency has not changed since the extension, although the departure time pattern then is about 5 minutes later.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:46 pm

jpp42 wrote:I think it was Wentworth Park that they used to extend to? That's the next crossover after John St Square. It's been a while since that was done, I think, but you can still stay on as far as John St Square. Not sure if that's officially allowed or just that the crew doesn't mind since they're going there anyway.

Yes, there is a facing crossover on the Up side of Wentworth Park.

Apart from the unofficial post-midnight extensions you refer to, before the new timetable started there used to be one late night trip (at about 2330 ex Central) which was actually timetabled to terminate at Wentworth Park.

I think it had run like that for many years and I presume it may have been a rail-cleaning movement.

I don't know if that still happens.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:10 pm

Geo101 wrote:
TfNSW wrote:Easing the squeeze: Up to 90 extra Inner West Light Rail services per week

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance has announced there will soon be up to 90 additional services per week during peak times on the Inner West Light Rail to cater for large increases in customer demand.

“An extra 3,700 people each day will be able to travel on light rail between Dulwich Hill and Central when the line is busiest.

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-r ... vices-week


I don't quite get these figures.

3700 extra spots in each peak period with up to 90 extra services.

Is that an extra 37k (M-F 10 peak periods @ 3700 per week) / 90 = 400+ people per service?

90 trips per week equals 18 trips per weekday, presumably 9 each way.

3700 pax per day divided by 18 trips per day = 205 pax per tram.

BTW, just for interest, the new timetable seems to require 10 trams in peak hours with a 6 minute layover at Dulwich Hill, whilst the off-peak requires 5 trams with a 3 minute layover at Dulwich Hill. (This information was obtained from the Trip Planner).
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Geo101 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:46 am

Glen wrote:
TfNSW wrote:Easing the squeeze: Up to 90 extra Inner West Light Rail services per week

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance has announced there will soon be up to 90 additional services per week during peak times on the Inner West Light Rail to cater for large increases in customer demand.

“An extra 3,700 people each day will be able to travel on light rail between Dulwich Hill and Central when the line is busiest.

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-r ... vices-week


Ah OK, I'm getting a bit mixed up between spots and people. An extra 18,500 spots each week (not 37,000) divided by 90 to get the 205 capacity per tram.

I was assuming people are generally making two trips per day, as in one in each of the morning and afternoon peaks.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:43 am

I found what appears to be the current timetable on this web site:
http://www.railmaps.com.au/routedetails ... eSelect=46
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:19 am

Geo101 wrote:
I was assuming people are generally making two trips per day, as in one in each of the morning and afternoon peaks.



This is a problem if you attempting to compare system to system as you need to know exactly what is being counted and how its done.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby tonyp » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:43 am

Glen wrote:I found what appears to be the current timetable on this web site:
http://www.railmaps.com.au/routedetails ... eSelect=46

Good find Glen. That saves me having to reverse-engineer a timetable!
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:14 am

tonyp wrote:
Glen wrote:I found what appears to be the current timetable on this web site:
http://www.railmaps.com.au/routedetails ... eSelect=46

Good find Glen. That saves me having to reverse-engineer a timetable!

Yes, it makes for interesting study as you can see where a tram 'runs off' at the Dulwich Hill end when the AM peak frequency changes to the off-peak frequency, and runs back on in the early afternoon.

Further to earlier discussion this also indicates that no services officially reverse at Wentworth Park any more, whist one AM service still commences from Lilyfield.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby jpp42 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:17 pm

It's surprising they don't terminate any more services at Lilyfield given the presence of the storage yard there. The preference seems to be to run empty from the termini instead?

On another note I happened to catch an after midnight service for the first time in a awhile, a couple nights ago. I noticed that the displays in the tram correctly indicated John St Square as the terminus, and announcements were made inside the team to that effect as well. They are no longer pretending like The Star is the terminus. However the display screen on the down platform at The Star claimed that services for the evening had terminated, even as our John St Square bound tram approached. Admittedly the chance of a passenger wishing to travel that one-stop distance is rather minimal.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby moa999 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:34 pm

jpp42 wrote:It's surprising they don't terminate any more services at Lilyfield given the presence of the storage yard there. The preference seems to be to run empty from the termini instead?
.


The extra afternoon services start at Convention - run all the way to Dulwich Hill and then return before being useful - a complete waste.
eg. the following service at Convention
2.02p, 2.17p, 3.05p
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby boronia » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:25 pm

jpp42 wrote:It's surprising they don't terminate any more services at Lilyfield given the presence of the storage yard there. The preference seems to be to run empty from the termini instead?
.

The Lilyfield storage yard is not suitable for terminating trams as it is only accessible from the up track, is always locked and usually has a tram parked in it.

Trams could be easily terminated at Liliyfield platform 2 by the provision of a trailing crossover at the Sydney end. Being a centre island platform, passengers can alight and board from the same side. The driver can change ends while the pax are sorting themselves out, and be heading back to the city before the next down service arrives.
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby Glen » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:05 pm

I thought that trams could terminate at Lilyfield by shunting past the platform and reversing on the main line, but I'm not sure.

I also thought the siding was accessible from the Down line through two crossovers.

Do you mean they stable a tram there during the off-peak ?
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby tonyp » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:10 am

Glen wrote:I thought that trams could terminate at Lilyfield by shunting past the platform and reversing on the main line, but I'm not sure.

I also thought the siding was accessible from the Down line through two crossovers.

Yes, a quick glance at Google Maps shows that there is a leading crossover just west of the stop. This can be readily used to terminate and reverse services (if they don't get in the way of other out-of-timetable trams!). It's not necessary to use the storage siding but that has inbuilt flexibility too as it can be entered from both ends.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Li ... 60!6m1!1e1
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby moa999 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:31 pm

As mentioned upthread, there is also a crossover on the city/up side of Wentworth Park station which is probably more ideal to use given the peak section seems to be Central-Fish Markets, and the stop seems to be lightly used

Also a decent distance to Glebe to enable appropriate separation
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby mandonov » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:49 pm

Sydney light rail: Work stoppages over worker pay, safety concerns

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-light- ... pg0pk.html

Could we possibly rename this thread 'Light Rail Observations' or something?
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Re: Light Rail Implementation 2013/4 _MLR Extension

Postby tonyp » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:32 am

mandonov wrote:Sydney light rail: Work stoppages over worker pay, safety concerns

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-light- ... pg0pk.html

Could we possibly rename this thread 'Light Rail Observations' or something?

They're struggling to shift the greatly increased numbers on schedule with wrongly-specified trams (too few doors) and trying to blame their staff. 45 seconds is a very poor expectation for a dwell for a tram. Looks like nothing has changed even under the new contract with its (presumed) performance standards. Big back-end (both TfNSW and Transdev) failure on this operation and signs are not good that similar won't happen on CSELR. When you introduce trams to a city you need tram expertise to go with it.

It seems to me that there are two threads here on Sydney light rail, one on CSELR and one on IWLR, which should perhaps be renamed accordingly. "MLR" hasn't been a trading name for quite a while and the extension is long done.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby mandonov » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:56 pm

On my way back from the ICC open day today and noticed at Paddy's Markets that the UTS Business School (housed in the new Frank Gehry building on the Goods Line) has been added to the list of attractions when the stop is announced.

Also now that the ICC buildings and the surrounding domain have been opened up, Convention and Exhibition Centre stops are now much easier to get to.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby moa999 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:11 pm

They need to add/move the crossing to the Northern end of Exhibition though given the main pathways now converge on this end.

New ICC looks great. Great Grand Ballroom, the stacked Exhibition Halls are massive as is the ICC Theatre.

I wonder whether the LR Exhibition should be renamed now that it serves Thorpe Centre/ICC Theatre, Expo Halls and Tumbalong Park
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby mandonov » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:39 am

I was really impressed with the whole precinct.

There's a new signalised crossing from the lane between the Theatre and Exhibition Centre, and a ramp on the northern side of Exhibition stop. Same for the southern side of Convention, leading to the lane between the Convention Centre and Harbourside.

Exhibition stop is now much easier to access. That laneway/plaza leads straight to the main entrances of both the Theatre and ExCentre, as well as straight to Tumbalong Park and the Chinese Gardens. Should see a good patronage boost now that it's easily accessible.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the two LR stops get renamed to 'ICC Convention' and 'ICC Exhibition', if only just to promote that brand more.
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