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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:18 am

jpp42 wrote:New CSELR trams have been sighted at Lilyfield depot as seen on another forum.

Were these delivered at Lilyfield, or is the track now active up to the IWRL junction allowing them to drive the trams all the way from Randwick? That would be a major milestone - surprised it's not been mentioned here if so.

Also, does anyone know the status of the APS installation - is it pretty much ready to go, or is there a lot more work to do on the power supply / controls side?

From what I know, at least one tram has run from Randwick to Town Hall, then on to Lilyfield. Last nght I believe.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby matthewg » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:49 am

jpp42 wrote:Also, does anyone know the status of the APS installation - is it pretty much ready to go, or is there a lot more work to do on the power supply / controls side?


I assume Alstom were keen to get a Citadis out to Lilifield so they can test the APS in a 'controlled environment'. Lillyfield is fitted with a short section of APS for test purposes. At this point, none of the trams will have ever deployed their APS shoe gear. Better to test it out there and ensure it all works instead of having a very public failure at Town Hall when the first attempt to lower the APS gear fails :-)
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:27 pm

jpp42 wrote:New CSELR trams have been sighted at Lilyfield depot as seen on another forum.

Wait, WHAT?! Where?! What forum? Is there any photographic/videographic evidence of the move? OMG I can't believe we're at that stage! I'm so excited!!

Edit: Okay I've gotta calm myself down...
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby jpp42 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:16 pm

STMPainter2018 wrote:
jpp42 wrote:New CSELR trams have been sighted at Lilyfield depot as seen on another forum.

Wait, WHAT?! Where?! What forum? Is there any photographic/videographic evidence of the move?


Only photo is at Lilyfield: https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... eld_sheds/

Yeah, it would have been interesting to see the first move through some of the new trackage. Maybe some more media will turn up. And yeah I guess it's just one tram, sorry for the improper use of the plural above.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:20 pm

STMPainter2018 wrote:
jpp42 wrote:New CSELR trams have been sighted at Lilyfield depot as seen on another forum.

Wait, WHAT?! Where?! What forum? Is there any photographic/videographic evidence of the move? OMG I can't believe we're at that stage! I'm so excited!!

Edit: Okay I've gotta calm myself down...

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:18 pm

Looks like 7 had footage of tram on George St saved for the 6pm bulletin from an ad I just saw
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby rogf24 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:02 pm

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:22 pm

And some Lilyfield shots from Constance's Twitter

https://twitter.com/AndrewConstance/sta ... 42112?s=19
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:56 pm

moa999 wrote:And some Lilyfield shots from Constance's Twitter

https://twitter.com/AndrewConstance/sta ... 42112?s=19

How obscenely costly and elaborate does this tram shed look? Looks more like a tram manufacturing plant! :!:
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby rogf24 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:59 pm

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:25 pm

I'm not gonna lie, I'm actually legit weeping right now. This is something I have LONGED to see for nine years, when I first developed an interest in Sydney tramways. I can imagine others have been waiting for MUCH longer than I have...

Here's a video the ABC recorded: https://www.facebook.com/abcinsydney/vi ... 173612689/
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:35 pm

So there are two depots one at Randwick, and the other here? Why is it located on the IWLR that otherwise has nothing to do with CSELR?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:38 pm

The Lilyfield building is not a "depot", it is a workshops in old lingo. It will service both lines.

Randwick and Pyrmont will remain as respective operating Depots
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:49 pm

boronia wrote:The Lilyfield building is not a "depot", it is a workshops in old lingo. It will service both lines.

Randwick and Pyrmont will remain as respective operating Depots

That explains things. Looks like it cost a packet to establish though. At least it is putting the old marshalling yards space to good use. I do hope this doesn't preclude a possible branch line using the old goods railway to lower Balmain and White Bay.
Andrew got it right when he said they should never have closed the original system in the first place.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby swtt » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:33 pm

moa999 wrote:And some Lilyfield shots from Constance's Twitter

https://twitter.com/AndrewConstance/sta ... 42112?s=19



Here is the great irony: if the trams of the 1960s weren't ripped out, would we semi appreciate it as much?

Or even worse: if they weren't ripped out back then, and the "Australian way" of maintenance continued throughout the 70s to the trams (a la NSWGR/State Rail/CityRail etc) would the system be flashy new and hopefully reliable, or so riddled with inefficiencies?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:11 pm

It's an interesting what if..

Certainly Melbourne still doesn't have many 30+ metre trams, so I doubt we'd be getting something as long as we are or on as much dedicated way.
Melbourne also has a relatively old high floor fleet (albeit their spend on heavy rail is equally lacking).

And I suspect many of the extremity routes (noting how large the Sydney system was) would have been replaced by buses in any event as more people got cars and demand fell and infrastructure needed replacing.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby CityRail » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:20 pm

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/a-f ... 52192.html

Looking forward to catch the free light rail sometime soon up and down George Street, all day every day.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:34 pm

The most ridiculous thing in the galaxy was tearing up the ROW on Anzac Pde which was designed from the outset to have a dedicated tramway in the centre. What did they replace it with? Little more than dormant grassland with trees that nobody utilises and a smattering of car parks. Great record for planning Sydney!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby rogf24 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:26 am

moa999 wrote:Certainly Melbourne still doesn't have many 30+ metre trams, so I doubt we'd be getting something as long as we are or on as much dedicated way.
Melbourne also has a relatively old high floor fleet (albeit their spend on heavy rail is equally lacking).


Doesn't seem to be a barrier in, say, Germany (pictured in Stuttgart, that coupled tram btw is 80 metres). Many old traditional tram lines are operating as light rail today. There's no reason why if Sydney kept its trams there wouldn't be long trams, indeed, a 1950s proposal by someone with the last name Caldwell had PCC "rapid transit" cars (like the 6000 CTA trains, wiki link) coupled up in 4 cars running on the old tram tracks that would be converted. That would mean almost 58-metre trams, just 10-metres shy of the coupled Citadis X05 sets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6000_series_(CTA)
Mind you Chicago has a lot of light rail-like sections on their rapid transit network. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8538279,-87.7321556,3a,75.5y,260.23h,89.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGu7Hm_ojt7hOIAliGuIqNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:19 am

Swift wrote:Andrew got it right when he said they should never have closed the original system in the first place.

That's quite a significant statement from a NSW politician. Where did he say that?

The best tram/light rail systems in the world today are legacy systems started 100-150 years ago that have been progressively modernised. Much more cost-effective in the long term than the eye-watering costs of building them again from new, plus - in some ways more significantly - you have continuity of inherited expertise rather than everybody having to learn the ropes again (and even worse trying to teach themselves rather than going and learning from existing expertise overseas). When the old Sydney tram system was lost, there were three losses: capacity, the physical operation and some of the best expertise in the world. It was a gigantic setback for transport in NSW.

Edit: I can see the source of that statement now:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=655391904872719
Last edited by tonyp on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:31 am

moa999 wrote:It's an interesting what if..

Certainly Melbourne still doesn't have many 30+ metre trams, so I doubt we'd be getting something as long as we are or on as much dedicated way.
Melbourne also has a relatively old high floor fleet (albeit their spend on heavy rail is equally lacking).

And I suspect many of the extremity routes (noting how large the Sydney system was) would have been replaced by buses in any event as more people got cars and demand fell and infrastructure needed replacing.

Melbourne has a history of chronic under-investment in public transport in general.

Certainly the SW lines of the Sydney system would have been considered redundant considering the existing parallel railway lines with closely-spaced stations. The North Sydney and Manly systems, in hindsight, would have been very good to keep (and connect via a bridge), with that ROW into Wynyard that, as it turned out, wasn't needed for railway use in the end anyway. The E and SE system was something that absolutely should have survived and it was this sector that was the subject of all the last-ditch political campaigning in the 1950s. It was a disaster that the Coalition lost the 1959 election, otherwise the system would have survived.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Passenger 57 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:42 am

Has anyone read the Sinclair report or perhaps the report that proceeded it? Apart from the copy the NLA has NSW State records also has a copy I would like to read it, or better yet an version with a commentary from someone who understands trams.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:34 am

Passenger 57 wrote:Has anyone read the Sinclair report or perhaps the report that proceeded it? Apart from the copy the NLA has NSW State records also has a copy I would like to read it, or better yet an version with a commentary from someone who understands trams.

I haven't read Sinclair Andrews and Ellen in full but it contains the views of London Transport that have held sway in NSW for the subsequent 60 years until Gladys charged into the chookhouse with trams. They urged us to replace this:

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/cura ... owds-c1928

with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWd_EuJURY
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:40 am

tonyp wrote:I haven't read Sinclair Andrews and Ellen in full but it contains the views of London Transport that have held sway in NSW for the subsequent 60 years until Gladys charged into the chookhouse with trams. They urged us to replace this:

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/cura ... owds-c1928

with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWd_EuJURY
The loading trams while in motion as shown in the clip on the national film archive website wouldn't be excepted today due to all of the OH&S regulations that are currently in place
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:52 am

Campbelltown busboy wrote:[ The loading trams while in motion as shown in the clip on the national film archive website wouldn't be excepted today due to all of the OH&S regulations that are currently in place

Of course, but even stationary they loaded at a rate that the replacement buses couldn't match, even the R/R1s with their smaller number of doors. You never saw a scene with trams like that one with buses at UNSW.
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