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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby swtt » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:41 am

Swift wrote:Even Turkey is light years ahead of us and no doubt didn't cost them in billions of dollars. Not to mention probably completed in months rather than years for the same length of line.


Turkey probably is grateful they've gotten a light rail line built, instead of having local NIMBYs cricitising it left right and centre, and fighting over trees and also trivial matters. That's why they are light years ahead of us - in terms of being civilised etc, rather than have retirees who have too much in their superannuation savings whilst having nothing else better to do but to tie themselves to a tree. [at least, that's my narrow view of the issues faced - I'm sure there are others which are debated legitimately here on this board but the NIMBYism I've read through the media is astounding]

(Note: I appreciate the discussion on this board, which is certainly not NIMBYism which I am referring to)
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:07 pm

tonyp wrote:I was shocked when I visited High St yesterday and saw the forest of massive heavy-rail stanchions, hell it's one of the most hideous things I've seen on a tramway anywhere. Compare these neanderthal tie-off stanchions in the heritage precinct at the end of the line:


Don't be silly. No heavy rail stanchion has that sort of diameter!

Mostly these seem to be designed as a cheaper version of a smart pole. So their girth is to permit electrical services to be inserted within them. Their height is because when you're cantilevering across three lanes of traffic, you need quite a lot of tie-back:

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Now come on, I've seen a lot of OHW supports of various types around the world, including those carrying services and lighting. I do know over-engineering when I see it. For much of High St, being relatively modern and not very high architectural quality, its far from a show-stopping issue, but up at the heritage end it's appalling. I'd also hate to see it continue to Coogee Beach like this.

Edit: Adelaide, obviously after consulting an urban design manual:

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Ikarbus » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:13 pm

hornetfig wrote:
tonyp wrote:Their height is because when you're cantilevering across three lanes of traffic, you need quite a lot of tie-back


Incorrect, the majority of the poles holding the catenary will also have a luminaire with outreach arm mounted at the top. The height it to facilitate mounting the light high enough to have adequate light spread.

It is a shame that the Randwick & High St zone are not using smart poles. This is because Randwick Council did not want to pay for it.

The non-Randwick council areas will use smart poles.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:30 pm

Ikarbus wrote:
hornetfig wrote:


Incorrect, the majority of the poles holding the catenary will also have a luminaire with outreach arm mounted at the top. The height it to facilitate mounting the light high enough to have adequate light spread.

It is a shame that the Randwick & High St zone are not using smart poles. This is because Randwick Council did not want to pay for it.

The non-Randwick council areas will use smart poles.

Hornetfig wrote that quote not me. There isn't actually a very long section where spanning of three lanes is required.

Not every pole seems to be getting a streetlight, yet they're using the same height regardless throughout.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby sunnyyan » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm

Read on the DT the other day that they've found human remains at the CSELR cosntruction site at Central from the cemetery that used to be there.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:09 am

sunnyyan wrote:Read on the DT the other day that they've found human remains at the CSELR cosntruction site at Central from the cemetery that used to be there.

Yup. I'm expecting this to be used as an excuse for further project delays.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Ikarbus » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:53 am

J_Busworth wrote:Yup. I'm expecting this to be used as an excuse for further project delays.


It will be a localised delay but will not delay the entire project. There just needs to be a little extra time for the correct protocol to be followed in addressing and removing the remains.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:07 pm

There was some conjecture that the remains might be those of an enthusiast waiting for the line to open.

But it seems all the regular contributors have been accounted for.

:) :)
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 pm

Ikarbus wrote:Incorrect, the majority of the poles holding the catenary will also have a luminaire with outreach arm mounted at the top. The height it to facilitate mounting the light high enough to have adequate light spread.


They don't need a 300mm diameter or a 5m driven pile to hold up a street light. They don't need a 300m diameter or a 5m driven pile to hold up a tram overhead either, but we get what we get.

The non-Randwick council areas will use smart poles.


You mean the "City of Sydney" areas? It's not like there's a cornucopia of LGAs involved here. One has more money than it knows what to do with and the other's public submissions and statements on the project suggest it has no idea what it's doing. And notwithstanding this, CoS gets smart poles except where they apparently don't like the southern tunnel approach. Oh but fancy bronze colour ones on Devonshire St.

tonyp wrote:Not every pole seems to be getting a streetlight, yet they're using the same height regardless throughout.


There are some stumpy at Centennial Park. They look kind of comedic. Only when there's no arm and no light. So maybe there'll be a few others in sections with grid overhead?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby sunnyyan » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:10 pm

Also today another setback was mentioned in the DT. Acciona appear to have dug through some modern art thing in the footpath worth $500K in Chinatown. Now TfNSW and Acciona are arguing over who should pay for it. There was also something about Acciona denying that they destroyed it, saying that the art pieces was stored by CoS.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:24 pm

If anyone actually paid $500k for some artwork in a pavement, I've got a suggestion for an additional use for all those poles.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby matthewg » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:15 am

sunnyyan wrote:Also today another setback was mentioned in the DT. Acciona appear to have dug through some modern art thing in the footpath worth $500K in Chinatown. Now TfNSW and Acciona are arguing over who should pay for it. There was also something about Acciona denying that they destroyed it, saying that the art pieces was stored by CoS.


Depends on your definition of 'destroyed'. It appears to be one of these sorts of pieces that only makes 'sense' insitu. The parts have to go back in the street in the correct positions. The SMH article says the City of Sydney expects TfNSW to pay for restoring it. TfNSW says 'not our problem, that's the consortium's problem'. The joint venture passed the problem to Acciona who will probably just add it to the long list of disputed items and never pay.

I gather one side effect of Acciona taking legal action against TfNSW for misrepresenting the difficulty of the work is that all penalty payments TfNSW can demand from Acciona are also on hold.

I suspect at some point there will be a 'settlement' where Acciona gets far less than they are currently asking for, but they also get all penalties nullified.

I'm not entirely sure why Acconia was digging up that particular street anyway, feeder cables?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:40 am

Keep to English speaking countries when awarding contracts and avoid non English speaking nations, especially the Spanish!! Their colonisation practises speak for themselves!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby rogf24 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:10 am

TBH, English-speaking countries generally have the worst practices in the public transport world, well in the developed world. If you want to know how to do things, you have to go to the Europeans on the continent or Asians to do it. The Spanish are usually very good a building infrastructure and running public transport, look at Madrid or Barcelona, but they've really fallen off the ball here. I think part of the problem is that they assumed that knowledge and practices in Australia, especially on the government's side, would be as advanced as in Spain and they were caught off guard for failing to do their homework on Australia's (and the English speaking world generally) lack of expertise leaving them exposed a lot more risks than usual. Part of the problem stems from the small government attitude in the English-speaking world which has to lead to an overreliance on consultants rather than in-house expertise. I would imagine Acciona is more familiar with governments, including in Spain, that actually know what they're doing, even to a small extent, rather than outsourcing everything to consultants.

If there's a good thing to come out of this, it's that it has taught the government the importance of developing in-house expertise, something they will hopefully learn for Parramatta. BTW, I'm saying this as an observer, not as an industry expert.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:27 am

rogf24 wrote:TBH, English-speaking countries generally have the worst practices in the public transport world, well in the developed world. If you want to know how to do things, you have to the Europeans on the continent or Asians to do it. The Spanish are usually very good a building infrastructure and running public transport, look at Madrid or Barcelona, but they've really fallen off the ball here. I think part of the problem is that they assumed that knowledge and practices in Australia, especially on the government's side, would be as advanced as in Spain and they were caught off guard for failing to do their homework on Australia's (and the English speaking world generally) lack of expertise leaving them exposed a lot more risks than usual. Part of the problem stems from the small government attitude in the English-speaking world which has to lead to an overreliance on consultants rather than in-house expertise. I would imagine Acciona is more familiar with governments, including in Spain, that actually know what they're, even to a small extent, doing rather than outsourcing everything to consultants.

If there's a good thing to come out of this, it's that it has taught the government the importance of developing in-house expertise, something they will hopefully learn for Parramatta.

I've been "on location" to hear the other side of this from industry in (continental) Europe, with tales of amazement at what they're confronted with when considering Australian jobs. One of the most common themes is the lack of professional knowledge in the Australian agencies that they deal with, which is unprecedented from a European perspective, and they've quickly learned that whatever they put forward is likely to be accepted uncritically by the Australian agency. As for tramways/light rail, even the consultants here have a heavy-rail background at best and thus don't provide an adequate filter on light rail matters to make up for the lack of critical faculties at the agency that's engaging them for advice.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Ikarbus » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:01 pm

hornetfig wrote:They don't need a 300mm diameter or a 5m driven pile to hold up a street light. They don't need a 300m diameter or a 5m driven pile to hold up a tram overhead either, but we get what we get.


Fully agree, the OCS pole design is overkill.

But your comment that the height is required for increased width span of holding the catenary cantilever was not quite correct. If this was the case, they would only go as high as the top of the tension cable holding the cantilever.

If the loads on the cantilever were to increase, this would not affect the height of the pole, but would likely increase the length of the foundation!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:26 pm

Worker caught desecrating human remains.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.co ... 50dqi.html
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby neilrex » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:32 pm

I disagree. If you have a vertical pole, a horizontal pole, and a diagonal pole or cable above the horizontal pole, which is stopping the horizontal pole from falling down, then you need the angle between the horizontal pole and the diagonal pole to be greater than some minimum angle, say at least 20 degrees.

If the diagonal item is placed at an angle which is too shallow with respect to the horizontal item, then the tension and buckling forces become impractically large.

So, if you have to make the horizontal pole longer, then you also need to extend the vertical pole higher, so that the diagonal item can maintain a similar angle.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:40 pm

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:51 pm

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:11 am

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 pm

Okay now they're just deliberately antagonising us!

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/acc ... 50j1t.html
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:33 pm

Addis Ababa in Ethiopia opened their system at the start of 2015 and took three years to complete. The two lines run for 31km combined and it cost U.S. $475 million including a 2km elevated section.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addis_Ababa_Light_Rail

ABC article about Acciona's claim that they would never have signed if they had known about having to deal with Ausgrid.
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/10566958
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby rogf24 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:59 pm

They really under built that line in Ethiopia, it's entirely grade seperated, it runs at grade on the street median in some places but there are no road crossings, it's all seperated.

They should have built it as a full metro, especially give the fact that it's a rapidly growing city and they went to the effort of building it to almost metro standards except when it came to capacity.

Still a good case to show the joke that Sydney's LRT construction is.
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