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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Tonymercury » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:09 pm

GazzaOak wrote:
The one connecting the trams between the inner west light rail shouldn't be as bad, as long as they use a chirstmas shutdown to do that...


Its already prepared for the track to go in, following the last Christmas shutdown.
Last edited by Tonymercury on Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:36 pm

I think the South Dowling Street crossings are likely to be the worst to do on the project overall. Presently each carriageway is scheduled consecutively for a two week full closure around March. The resultant road looks like it will be ~500mm higher than present. That's a major artery to completely close for that sort of period of time.

Alison-Anzac the largest single junction and needs to keep three lanes open for some movements, but there's lots of space there. Construction there is currently working on shifting the southbound carriageway further east. That should be complete by November. Actually pushing through the middle of the intersection is a Christmas period job. Some further slewing is required to construct the crossing from side-running to centre-running.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:17 am

hornetfig wrote: Construction there is currently working on shifting the southbound carriageway further east.. Some further slewing is required to construct the crossing from side-running to centre-running.


Presumably slewing is also required for the continuous flow/diamond design
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:00 pm

moa999 wrote:Presumably slewing is also required for the continuous flow/diamond design


The continuous flow fits around the tram tracks as designed for the "conventional" intersection. ALTRAC have to reinstate the conventional intersection. The Alexandria Corridor project is about to go off to EIS, and unless the continuous flow intersection is split of and dealt with by REF very quickly, it won't have a chance to achieve planning approval and for the light rail contract to be varied before the conventional intersection is reinstated.

That said the conventional intersection is still somewhat unconventional - the southbound Anzac Pde through lanes are on the left of the light rail, but the right turn into Dacey Ave slip lanes split from the carriageway before the tramway enters Anzac Pde and will run on the right side of the light rail.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:15 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
GazzaOak wrote:
The one connecting the trams between the inner west light rail shouldn't be as bad, as long as they use a chirstmas shutdown to do that...


Its already prepared for the track to go in, following the last Christmas shutdown.

It is a mystery why it wasn't all done in the one Xmas shutdown.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby gascoyne » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:53 pm

The LR people reckoned there was just so much to do last Xmas at Hay/George that they couldn't finish it in the available time. So they rejoined the IWLR tracks, re-paved and withdrew.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:43 pm

gascoyne wrote:The LR people reckoned there was just so much to do last Xmas at Hay/George that they couldn't finish it in the available time. So they rejoined the IWLR tracks, re-paved and withdrew.

With the way I see workers standing around, I'm not surprised.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:14 am

I still cant work out why they didn't put in the H crossing on the Hay St track, to avoid having to dig this all out again.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby matthewg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:57 am

Swift wrote:
gascoyne wrote:The LR people reckoned there was just so much to do last Xmas at Hay/George that they couldn't finish it in the available time. So they rejoined the IWLR tracks, re-paved and withdrew.

With the way I see workers standing around, I'm not surprised.


Most of the workers you see standing around are traffic controllers. I think the project has more of them than actual workers!. Can't have someone wandering into a worksite and hurting themselves, can we?
And it's also keeping a lot of backpackers, private training companies and labour-hire firms in work. Think of the economic activity this is all generating!


Hay and George I still can't understand. So they didn't have enough time to finish it properly, but they could have at least put the blade units, the diamonds and the H crossing so they didn't need to dig the existing line up again and left the rest of the junction unfinished.
And not only do they need to dig it up again, they have to dig up CESLR's worth of concrete, not the original 'half the thickness' SLR concrete track.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:59 am

matthewg wrote:Most of the workers you see standing around are traffic controllers. I think the project has more of them than actual workers!. Can't have someone wandering into a worksite and hurting themselves, can we?
And it's also keeping a lot of backpackers, private training companies and labour-hire firms in work. Think of the economic activity this is all generating!

The ones in High St take their breaks out of the sun on the seats in the foyer of the Sydney Childrens Hospital!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Frosty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:59 pm

I saw 3 traffic controllers managing the pedestrian crossing at Nine Ways. Then noticed 2 further up the road at Borrodale Rd. Plus 2 that are usually at the pedestrian crossing on Anzac Parade outside Peters of Kensington. Some traffic controllers tie a Bunnings umbrella next to a pole or something to cover themselves from the sun.

Traffic controllers are in high demand considering the high levels of construction sites in Sydney currently.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:09 am

The controllers at Peter's are necessary due to the contra-flow traffic arrangements and poor sight lines of approaching traffic; not to mention the aversion of most pedestrians to actually comprehending the changes and looking before crossing.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:08 pm

I have had them frantically waving that obnoxious lightsaber thing downwards even when I'm at or below 40km/h. The girl lollypop men are fine it's the red neck looking guys that get drunk on power with their itty bitty role of authority that I get problems with.
Hope they spend their $50 ph on things other than booze and repayments for their flashy mass market brand car!!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby GazzaOak » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:14 am

https://transportnsw.info/news/2017/lig ... nuary-2018

I think that going to be the last piece of the puzzle, hope we see intersecting tracks by the time that finished
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Linto63 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:12 am

Which will involve ripping up the section on the corner of George and Hay Streets that was relaid during the last Xmas shutdown. Surely it would have been more sensible to lay the points as part of this? Presumably it this sort of duplication that has seen costs blowout.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Fleet Lists » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:24 am

I believed that was planned but they ran out of time.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:31 am

Fleet Lists wrote:I believed that was planned but they ran out of time.

With the level of intensity I see from workers, getting $80ph, on the job sites, that's no surprise.
It's going to be a wonderful little project upon completion and the suckers..ahh..public will sqeal in delight.
Value for money?? Not on your Nelly!!
The Spanish must be having a rip snorter at our expense..literally!!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:48 am

Agreed with you Swift.Certaintly no where near value for money,but a great piece of infrastructure that,if operated correctly, will provide a great public transport service.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:59 am

burrumbus wrote:Agreed with you Swift.Certaintly no where near value for money,but a great piece of infrastructure that,if operated correctly, will provide a great public transport service.

I consider that there has been no lessening of the need for or benefits of CSELR since its inception, it's just the seemingly continuous string of bad news about the costs blowing out and the cost-benefit calculations going out the window. It's now a "cost no object" benefit! But I think there are many roads in that category too. To my mind, the major test it has to pass next is to get that journey-time down below the 25 minutes end to end that it should take no more than. I don't want to see operational failure piled on top of all the other little "mishaps" along the way.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:46 am

Agreed Tony.A quick end to end journey time is one of the keys to this project ,to attract more of the punters out of their cars.Another key is the correct operation of the feeder bus routes to ensure a seamless service.The complete patronage of the service is very dependant on patronage from further out .That will require proper planning and high frequency of the feeders with minimal connection times.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:58 am

No intention to install traffic light priority and as for seamless bus connectivity? Good luck!
Absolutel traffic light priority for the LR and any bus services heading toward a LR stop. The latter it's not going to happen in this political environment, but LR may get it if enough outrage happens over garbage running times for this platinum plated project.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:12 pm

If the whole end to end trip using bus and tram actually results in longer end to end running times you really run the risk of actually loosing patronage,whilst paying the huge sum of money to build the tram line.The punters will just drive their cars.Thats why the running times of the trams are critical,but also the feeder bus services.3-4 minute connection times to the trams.Load and go from the trams.That will require STA to heavily modify some of their entrenched practices,assuming that STA still have that contract.
And as Swift observes proper bus priority.Lets hope TFNSW can see the sense in that !!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:36 pm

You are not going to get "load and go" from all tram-bus connections. Some routes only run every 30 minutes during the day, and I can't see that improving. While passengers can time their current bus trip from the city to, say, Port Botany, they won't feel so good if they just catch the next tram to come along and have to cool their heels at Kingsford for 20+ minutes for their bus.

TfNSW doesn't seem to want to see any sense in traffic light priority; they are quite entrenched in the belief that the proposed times are adequate.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:22 pm

Yes,Boronia,there are areas in the feeder bus coverage area where load and go is not possible.As your example of Port Botany.But for much of the service area frequencies can be justified in the 8 minute multiples that the trams will run on.So you'll end up with feeder bus frequencies of 8 minutes,16 minutes,24 minutes and at the outer ends 32 minutes.That should be the way to do it,to connect the trams properly,but you won't have clockface timetables.The other way to do it is change the tram frequencies to 8 and 7 minute frequencies,allowing more of a clock face timetable in 7/8,then 15 and 30 minute multiples.The major corridors to Coogee,Maroubra/Chifley.,Maroubra Beach ,Eastgardens/Matraville can easily justify 8 minute frequencies connecting every tram.The outer areas of La Perouse/Little Bay probably on 15 or 30 minute frequencies.
So for much of the service area load and go is certaintly the way to do it.For those in the outer areas and Port Botany pax will still need to time their connections.
Frequency of the feeder buses and seamless connectivity between bus and tram is the key to building the patronage.Also the simpliication of the bus network into more frequent routes,with less route variants.If it is done poorly you'll just get more people driving their cars.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:03 pm

boronia wrote:TfNSW doesn't seem to want to see any sense in traffic light priority; they are quite entrenched in the belief that the proposed times are adequate.


Just to disrupt the prevailing narrative that traffic priorities are the cause of poor run times:


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