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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:56 pm

Mostly, the existing buses handle the loadings out of Coogee without much problem.

Extending the tram line down to Coogee will not generate any additional patronage unless there is massive redevelopment, which is unlikely in the foreseeable future. Thus there is no financial benefit in spending hundreds of millions dollars for no net return.

A similar case could be mounted for any extension of the Kingsford line southwards, even considering the Eastgardens developments.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby simonl » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:07 pm

boronia wrote:Mostly, the existing buses handle the loadings out of Coogee without much problem.

Extending the tram line down to Coogee will not generate any additional patronage unless there is massive redevelopment, which is unlikely in the foreseeable future. Thus there is no financial benefit in spending hundreds of millions dollars for no net return.

A similar case could be mounted for any extension of the Kingsford line southwards, even considering the Eastgardens developments.

Huh?

You don't think the transfer at Randwick would be a disincentive to using the service? Not such an issue in peak times with the X buses still running but what about off peak?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:48 pm

About what?

Off peak journeys would be mostly not time sensitive, and bus-tram transfer should add no more than 10 minutes to a trip to the CBD. People who do have time deadlines just need to make allowances for it.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:20 pm

boronia wrote:About what?

Off peak journeys would be mostly not time sensitive, and bus-tram transfer should add no more than 10 minutes to a trip to the CBD. People who do have time deadlines just need to make allowances for it.

If any combined tram/bus trip took longer than an existing bus trip, I'd consider the tram an operational failure. The end to end journey time between Circular Quay and the terminus of either branch needs to be under 25 minutes to encompass anybody missing a connection and waiting 8 minutes. This is a typical run time for a tram over this distance and number of stops - including Gold Coast.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:11 pm

burrumbus wrote:I found it fascinating that the tram won't go down to Coogee.Coogee generates great patronage ,but the line will terminate roughly a km and a half short at Randwick.A missed opportunity I think.

It seems very fittng to name the last stop Randwick Junction. :shock:
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby simonl » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:43 am

boronia wrote:About what?

Off peak journeys would be mostly not time sensitive, and bus-tram transfer should add no more than 10 minutes to a trip to the CBD. People who do have time deadlines just need to make allowances for it.

Or they could just drive. And they will. Whether the people who suddenly start using the tram and didn't use the bus on the inner parts are outnumbered by those who used the bus but won't use the combined bus/tram journey remains to be seen.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:57 am

People might appreciate more time to bury their dead faces into their phones whilst enjoying a much, much smoother ride than a bus could possibly dream of.
People grin and bear buses, people love the train or a train like experience. And railed transport feels part of the community and they will be inspired to be part of it by using it.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Tonymercury » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:31 am

simonl wrote:Or they could just drive. And they will.


To the CBD? That'll add to the excitement.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:29 am

Tonymercury wrote:
simonl wrote:Or they could just drive. And they will.

To the CBD? That'll add to the excitement.

Exactly. Then when they get there, they'll drive back out to Randwick to find somewhere to park! For many years there was a hotel next to Edgecliff station that used to advertise themselves as "only 5 minutes drive to the CBD!" Yeah right, that's true in one sense but not in others.

Swift wrote:People might appreciate more time to bury their dead faces into their phones whilst enjoying a much, much smoother ride than a bus could possibly dream of.
People grin and bear buses, people love the train or a train like experience. And railed transport feels part of the community and they will be inspired to be part of it by using it.

My wife, whom I use as the disinterested and impartial deconstruction test for public transport, prefers buses over trams and trains. Go figure! (Hint: she doesn't like riding backwards or sideways.)

The ride of a tram is better but that's not the only factor that people assess comfort on. If we compare the same linear amount of bus vs tram where the total capacity is the same (say a 33 metre tram vs two artic buses), the buses offer about 40 extra seats and of all the seats, the buses offer about 50 more forward-facing seats.

If we hop over to Europe, where the tram industry is a bit smarter about these things, and choose a typically unidirectional tram, 2650 mm wide, with doors on one side only and the wheels under the articulations rather than in the saloons (probably basically only Skoda 15T and Siemens ULF nowadays), the gap is closed and the buses only have about 25 more seats and of all the seats,the buses will have only about 20 more forward-facing seats.

So, if in Sydney they're not going the European way and instead opting for basically standee trams, something more than the smooth ride will be needed to win hearts and minds away from the buses - and the biggest weapon is then journey time. The faster the journey time, the less of an issue is standing or sitting backwards. (Same for trains.) The old Sydney tramways knew all of this. As for the present mob - not looking good so far unless they pull a hat trick by 2019.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby simonl » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:54 am

Tonymercury wrote:
simonl wrote:Or they could just drive. And they will.


To the CBD? That'll add to the excitement.

People do drive to the CBD, on and off peak. By excitement I will read congestion. So yes it will.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:36 pm

I have three reservations about this project.The first is not operating to Coogee.The second is not operating to Eastgardens.I think to justify the huge cost of the project ($2.1 billion ,plus most likely cost blowouts)you really need to maximise the loadings on the services.You need to follow the busiest corridors.Coogee (Carr Street)currently receives 16 bus services per hour off peak and double that in the peak.16 is most likely overkill,but even at 10 pax per trip that adds to 160 per hour.I suspect the loadings from Coogee on 314/372/373 and M50 are higher than that.It gives an additional guaranteed base to the patronage for the expenditure of a fraction of the price of the total project.The same theory applies to Eastgardens.The service will terminate in 2 places where there is a lot of passengers.
I agree with Tonyp re the journey time.The project ticks boxes in terms of its routing,frequency,capacity ,reliabilty and simplicity.The overall journey time will be the game changer if it is to lure car drivers out of their vehicles and use the tram.I agree with Tony on the 25 minute journey time.If extended to Coogee or Eastgardens add about 5 minutes for Coogee and a bit more for Eastgardens. If the journey time,especially on combined/bus/tram is higher than the single current bus journey time people will continue to drive.You have to give people a real reason to use the service.If the bus/tram connections are lousy you could run the risk of loosing passengers.People do vote with their feet.I'll use the example of the numerous bus routes in Melbourne that connect with trams in inner/middle suburbia.If the frequency is half hourly very little use.If it's 20 minutes some use.If its 15 minutes or better there is good use.Magnified in peak.
The success of this project will depend,in reasonable part, on how well the bus/tram connections are organized.That's my third reservation.That is where a reasonably high percentage of the patronage will come from.With 8 minute frequencies from 7 till 7 that precludes clockface timetabling of the feeder routes,for great connections.Really the feeder routes,or the majority of them, should be extensions of the turn up and go 8 minute frequency.That would certaintly work on Randwick to Carr Street and Bream St,Coogee,on Maroubra Beach either from Randwick or Kingsford,on Eastgardens and beyond on Bunnerong Road and on Anzac Parade to Maroubra Junction and beyond.
The routes need to be direct and fast and link with the trams on 3-4 minute connections.Picking up from the trams just load and go .Use all door loading and unloading for loading and drops for maximum speed.
My ideas for terminating at Eastgardens are based on the need for quick ,direct bus routes to feed the tram.Routes of preferably 15 minutes duration and no more than 20 .If you terminated at Eastgardens nearly all of the area would have feeder routes of no more than 20 minutes duration. By these quick,direct routes with tight connections with trams and 8 minute frequencies you can market the network as a seamless,integrated service with better journey times.Of course the feeder services would be best operated as dedicated services to ensure maximum reliabilty,with the elimination of the excessive specialling that contributes to unreliabilty.I can point to the 3 sets of university shuttle services in Melbourne-301-Latrobe.401 Melbourne Uni/Hospital and 601 -Monash Uni that operate with dedicated buses and drivers and are very reliable and hugely used services.They work a treat.
And importantly real bus priority along the major trunk roads to keep the whole thing reliable.
The change to feeder bus operation will certaintly result in a smaller STA operation in the Eastern Suburbs.Hopefully this may also see the renewal of the fleet used on the 400 with fleet designed for the route and with the correct capacity.
The other major benefit is just the simplification of the network and the massive lift in utilisation of the bus fleet if done correctly/Like the uni shuttles in Melbourne you could have buses/shifts moving up to 1000 pax,as oppossed to 200 to 300 max.
Hopefully something more to think about gents,with this huge project.Thanks for reading.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:48 pm

burrumbus wrote:Thanks for reading.
You're welcome. Some good points made but very idealistic, especially regarding real bus priority. I somehow don't think feeder bus routes will get a look in by this regime.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Liamena » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:26 pm

boronia wrote:Off peak journeys would be mostly not time sensitive, and bus-tram transfer should add no more than 10 minutes to a trip to the CBD. People who do have time deadlines just need to make allowances for it.


That's a fairly extravagant claim. Why would people travelling off-peak be any less time-sensitive than other users ?

And, one of the key issues with slow transfers, is the lack of ability by the user to control how long it will take.

If the user has one vehicle to catch, then they only have to be on time to catch that vehicle, and any variance due to traffic subsequent to that, is outside their control and there is no point stressing about it. If you have to transfer, you have the additional stress and worry about the transfer time, which is worst when the second vehicle is less frequent, so a 2 minute traffic delay on the first vehicle can easily translate into a 32 minute delay on the second vehicle.

In fact when I was working on an afternoon shift starting at 3, the boss was a lot less sympathic about ocasional transport disruptions, than when I was working the normal morning shift.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:52 am

Swift wrote:
burrumbus wrote:Thanks for reading.
You're welcome. Some good points made but very idealistic, especially regarding real bus priority. I somehow don't think feeder bus routes will get a look in by this regime.

Thanks Swift.Bus priority would make the whole thing work well,but whether the government will put in a lot on the trunk roads is another question.
Without the feeder routes being organized right will impact greatly on the patronage to be maximised to justify the cost.I hope TFNSW and the government think it through right.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:53 am

burrumbus wrote:I have three reservations about this project.The first is not operating to Coogee.The second is not operating to Eastgardens.

By knocking the use of "Vienna" (drive-over) platforms, as used in Melbourne and Europe, on the head and favouring a more heavy-rail approach to tramway design, NSW has pretty-much ruled out the possibility of extending tramways along Sydney's more typical and intimate four-lane streets. The only methods they've adopted in these environments are either malling the section of street completely, incorporating one platform in the footpath and the other on the street, which leaves one lane left for a one-way general traffic flow (e.g. High St Randwick, Devonshire St Surry Hills) or finding the nearest park where they can grab a bit of the park to widen the road (e.g. Newcastle east terminus). Pity if the park isn't actually near where you need to stop or terminate.

So project these engineering treatments onto the route you desire and see if it's possible. You could get a line down to Coogee with a bit of urban-space argy bargy and compromises. Bunnerong Rd was actually designed as six lanes, so I guess it's possible with widening. But which is the busiest corridor there - Bunnerong or Anzac? Future tram extensions are going to be primarily for the grand boulevards. The clever ability of trams to squeeze through tight urban spaces, as they do in Europe, won't apply in NSW.

You have to think of it less as a tramway and more as the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad, operated by "vehicles" (mobility chairs, combine harvesters, milk carts, whatever can they mean I wonder?).
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby gascoyne » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:23 pm

The first half-train was unveiled today. A full train is to have 120 seats - 96 fixed and 24 flip - so 15 trams/hour can seat 1800 at most or as few as 1440 if seats are flipped up to make more standing-room. Either way, Gladys says "Once the line is up and running, we will find the need to put on additional services and, of course, we are geared up for that." I understood that RMS was unlikely to allow more services for fear of unacceptable interference with general road traffic.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Stu » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:40 pm

I found something relevant - Yarra Trams accessible tram stops.

http://yarratrams.com.au/using-trams/accessible-journeys/using-accessible-stops/
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:27 pm

Liamena wrote:
boronia wrote:Off peak journeys would be mostly not time sensitive, and bus-tram transfer should add no more than 10 minutes to a trip to the CBD. People who do have time deadlines just need to make allowances for it.


That's a fairly extravagant claim. Why would people travelling off-peak be any less time-sensitive than other users ?


Generalising, off peak pax would have more tolerant arrival deadlines, and would have more opportunity to organise an earlier start to their trip to compensate for the delay.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby grog » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:45 pm

That completely ignores the fact that off peak public transport is compeating with much less congested roads - so car travel is quicker.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:17 pm

...until you get to the CBD and have to find somewhere to park.

But we are comparing bus-only with bus/tram travel.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:19 pm

grog wrote:That completely ignores the fact that off peak public transport is compeating with much less congested roads - so car travel is quicker.

I do believe that a good public transport service should uphold optimum performance at any time of day. Off-peak isn't an excuse to take it easy.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:29 pm

Stu wrote:I found something relevant - Yarra Trams accessible tram stops.

http://yarratrams.com.au/using-trams/accessible-journeys/using-accessible-stops/

The "Easy access stop type 1 and type 2" are the same thing (typically called a "Vienna" or drive-over stop), just that in Melbourne in one type they let traffic drive on the tram tracks as well. This type of platform TfNSW/RMS has decided to ban in NSW, which is a significant setback.

Centre island platform stops are undesirable from an operational and safety point of view but road agencies browbeat tramways into using them to (allegedly) save roadspace for cars.

The side island are the best type. Kerb extensions (effectively side islands joined to the footpath) are great but of course preclude motor traffic (effectively creates a mall). In most other jurisdictions, buses can also drive through and use these two types. They haven't quite got their heads around that one yet in NSW. Baby steps.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Glen » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:36 pm

tonyp wrote:
grog wrote:That completely ignores the fact that off peak public transport is compeating with much less congested roads - so car travel is quicker.

I do believe that a good public transport service should uphold optimum performance at any time of day. Off-peak isn't an excuse to take it easy.

One of the things I found interesting about Zurich is that the trams don't really have a 'peak hour', they just run frequently and load busily all day (during daylight hours).
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Glen » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:41 pm

tonyp wrote:By knocking the use of "Vienna" (drive-over) platforms, as used in Melbourne and Europe, on the head and favouring a more heavy-rail approach to tramway design, NSW has pretty-much ruled out the possibility of extending tramways along Sydney's more typical and intimate four-lane streets.

I can see some logic in doubting whether Sydney motorists would ever get used to stopping for passengers to walk from the kerb to the tram on a 4 lane road, but what's to prevent such a stop being a platform stop that just takes the space that would otherwise be parking?
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New tram unveiled

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:49 pm

The search box isn't finding any earlier report.

Roderick.

August 1 2017 First new tram for Sydney's $2.1b light rail line finally unwrapped.
It feels more spacious inside and open to natural light than Sydney's existing trams. And, once coupled to another, the new tram sets for Sydney's $2.1 billion light rail will be twice the length of those running on the 12.8-kilometre inner west light rail line.
After weeks wrapped in white plastic at a new yard at Randwick, the first of 60 trams for Sydney's $2.1 billion light rail line from Circular Quay to Randwick and Kensington was unveiled on Tuesday.
Built in France and Spain, the trams due for the eastern suburbs light rail line are 67 metres long and can carry up to 450 passengers. Vision: Seven News.
"It will have a very modern smooth feel [for passengers] but obviously longer than any other light rail vehicle they have seen before," Premier Gladys Berejiklian said.
Describing it as a "game changer", she said the new line would provide a better link for people travelling to the CBD or, in the other direction, to the University of NSW at Kensington and hospitals at Randwick.
"Once the line is up and running, we will find the need to put on additional services and, of course, we are geared up for that," she said.
Built in France and Spain by transport conglomerate Alstom, the 67-metre Citadis X05 tram sets will be among the longest trams in the world when they start operating in 2019.
That is a few metres short of a Boeing 747 jumbo and almost four times as long as one of Sydney's bendy buses.
In all, 30 of the trams sets will eventually be running on the 12-kilometre rail line from Circular Quay to the south east.
The first tram is unveiled for Sydney's $2.1 billion light rail line. Photo: Supplied .
Capable of carrying of up to 450 passengers – the equivalent of nine buses – each coupled set will have 96 permanent seats and 24 flip seats.
Alstom Australia managing director Mark Coxon said passengers were most likely to notice the carriages' double doors, which would allow people to exit and enter more easily and quickly than standard trams.
The interior is about 10 per cent wider than the trams on the inner west light rail line. Photo: Supplied .
So-called "balcony windows" also gave a more open feel to the interiors by allowing more natural light in, he said.
The interiors are 2.65 metres wide, about 10 per cent greater than the trams on the inner west light rail line.
How Sydney's carriages measure up. Photo: Graphic: Remi Bianchi
"The wider it is, the easier it is to move around," Mr Coxon said.
The rest of the light rail vehicles will arrive over the coming months, and be housed at a new stabling yard under construction beside Randwick Racecourse. The trams will be tested along a section of new track later this year.
Related Articles:
Why city's new light rail trams won't switch lines .
Sydney's light rail secret wrapped in white plastic .
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/first-new-tra ... xmryc.html, 32 comments.
video New Sydney light rail tram unwrapped. Built in France and Spain, the trams due for the eastern suburbs light rail line are 67 metres long and can carry up to 450 passengers. Vision: Seven News.
http://www.theage.com.au/video/video-ne ... 4wp3t.html
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