CBD & South East Light Rail

[In Transit]

Hornetfig, you say on SCF that buses will be stopping at UNSW High St eastbound platform. That was not the original plan, partly I imagine because they're too inflexible to rise to the challenge of stopping buses at high tram platforms without damaging them (the platforms are not built with Kassel kerbs). So have they changed their mind?

It's my understanding that it's to be a bus stop eastbound for 400/370/348/whatever. For example, in the Urban Design Plan for that section, the westbound bus stop location is identified, but the eastbound is conspicuously not.

My guess is it shows no intention to return eastbound buses to High Street at all.

[mandonov]

I believe the bus stop locations for this area will be a bit further west of Wansey and east of Botany.

The modification to the project that changed High Street to what we're getting (https://majorprojects.accelo.com/public ... Report.pdf) only says that the eastbound light rail track will be used by buses in lieu of an available general traffic lane, not that there is a shared stop there.

[tonyp]

I believe the bus stop locations for this area will be a bit further west of Wansey and east of Botany.

The modification to the project that changed High Street to what we're getting (https://majorprojects.accelo.com/public ... Report.pdf) only says that the eastbound light rail track will be used by buses in lieu of an available general traffic lane, not that there is a shared stop there.

That was my understanding all along. The concept of shared stops would be too much for TfNSW to cope with. In addition, you can't operate shared stops succesfully when one mode quickly loads and unloads through (many) all doors and the other loads slowly through the front door and unloads not much less slowly through only two available doors. No prizes for guessing the outcome of such practice.

[J_Busworth]

As far as I remember the original plans for relocated bus stops had stops in both directions where the current westbound stop on High Street to the west of Wansey Road where there used to be an eastbound stop used by the 348 and 370 and then the following stops on Clara Street immediately north of the High Street Intersection. This way all the areas are serviced by a stop but it dies not block the light rail tracks or the single lanes on High Street.

[tonyp]

Here's a shared tram/bus stop in Melbourne (Daniel Bowen photo):



Here's one in Prague:



Note that the track centres are widened in the Melbourne example. Perhaps they don't trust their bus drivers to hold a straight line. Ironically, the buses are narrower in Australia. If they have the same over-cautiousness in NSW, that would decide it as far as the already-designed and built CSELR is concerned. No convenient interchanges or keeping bustitutions out of the traffic jams for you, public transport users!

[tonyp]

https://www.railway-technology.com/feat ... il-fiasco/

The issue that nobody addresses in these critiques is how you address the lack of capacity in the bus system and the capacity gap between that and heavy rail, not to mention that latter being too inflexible for the specific needs that CSELR has to meet. There's a capacity gap between about 2,000 to 3,000 pphpd provided by the bus system and 20,000 to 40,000 per hour provided by an inflexible train line (one corridor only, too few stops, requires buses to supplement).

What's the mode that fits that gap? Trams. What did they remove in 1961? Trams. The argument circles back to the same necessary outcome. The fact that the implementation agency bungled it is a separate issue. It could as easily be a hospital, road or power station project. The fact that it was bungled is not down to it being a tram system. The answer is not that we shouldn't have tram systems, the answer is that we should have better governance of projects.

[tonyp]

Does anybody "on the ground" locally who follows the physical construction process have a feeling about whether it's possible to open the Central (Chalmers St) to Randwick section of the line early in order both to have some prior experience of live running with passengers and to load in some extra capacity to serve the two event venues? Not to mention even having something running in time for the election, though that's not my main reason for asking.

What's the state of works/systems completion along this section and are there points at the southern end of Chalmers St to enable trams to crossover to reverse southwards from any platform (not just the events platform)? I understand that the bridge at Moore Park stop is et to be erected but I think the underpass at least is in place.

[boronia]

Matthew's recent photos on TDU group show a scissors crossover at the southern end of the main platforms

[tonyp]

Matthew's recent photos on TDU group show a scissors crossover at the southern end of the main platforms

And presumably there's a turnout also completed to the south of this for the events platform? They will need three platforms in use at Chalmers St to run a 2 min headway on event days, two platforms for normal running.

[boronia]

Yes, double track turnout into the third road.

DSC02557sm.JPG (72.16 KiB) Viewed 4525 times

and at the other end

DSC02561sm.JPG (76.79 KiB) Viewed 4524 times

[hornetfig]

Does anybody "on the ground" locally who follows the physical construction process have a feeling about whether it's possible to open the Central (Chalmers St) to Randwick section of the line early in order both to have some prior experience of live running with passengers and to load in some extra capacity to serve the two event venues? Not to mention even having something running in time for the election, though that's not my main reason for asking.

If you want an event-only service (Chalmers St-Moore Park or Centennial Park), the construction constraint is probably going to be commissioning the backup control centre, which is underground at Moore Park. There's also the unresolved matter of the OC pole through the awning of the Strawberry Hills hotel. That's probably in the "don't touch until after March 23" pile.

[tonyp]

I don't know why they need a control centre at Moore Park, but add it to the overdesign.

I'm sure that if they can reach the racecourse they can also run to Randwick. It would be good if they could get a live operation going to start their learning curve, they're going to need it. No doubt the government has been asking similar questions.

[boronia]

Chalmers St looks very complicated. Surprised they won't have a signal box to control the movements on busy days.

[Linto63]

Does anybody "on the ground" locally who follows the physical construction process have a feeling about whether it's possible to open the Central (Chalmers St) to Randwick section of the line early in order both to have some prior experience of live running with passengers and to load in some extra capacity to serve the two event venues? Not to mention even having something running in time for the election, though that's not my main reason for asking.

Having passed through most parts of the route in the last month, it does appear complete in most sections. However there are still pockets that appear some way off, and for it not to be ready until 2020, there must be other work still to be completed that is not immediately obvious.

While the idea of having a soft opening for part of the line sounds good in theory, it may be less practical. Aside from short runs within close proximity of the Randwick depot, full scale testing has yet to commence. There will need to be thousands of kilometres of system testing to be done, not only to test the trams and infrastructure, but check that there are no interface issues from external sources, and have drivers accrue the required hours.

While the trams (and presumably signaling systems) are all proven kit, there shouldn't be any problems, but interfaces issues are a common problem when (albeit more complex) trains are introduced, and it happened on the Adelaide extension earlier in the year. It is only after this has been completed will passengers be allowed on board.

It also couldn't be done politically. The light rail is one of those things that the government is quietly hoping that everybody just forgets about, so there is no chance of them doing anything to highlight it at this stage of the cycle. The risk of a break down and ending up on the front pages would be too high. You can't really introduce a service and then take it away for 9 months.

I don't know why they need a control centre at Moore Park, but add it to the overdesign.

I know the assumption increasingly on this board appears to be that because TfNSW have an involvement, it must be a dumb idea, but maybe there is a good reason for it that we are not aware of.

[moa999]

Hard to do full scale testing on areas without wires.

But we are probably only months away from being able to test on Central - Randwick
(Newcastle testing only about 4 months till when it appears ready to open - and they don't even have all their trams yet)

As for the Moore Park control centre - just possibly it's smart to have a backup facility for control of a major piece of infrastructure.

[tonyp]

Normally, new trams would have thousands of hours of testing, but they do things differently here. I've seen plenty of very busy tram operations in Europe to know that this one isn't particularly complicated, but they've made it so. That's one of the obstacles to an early opening.

[Linto63]

Being a design, widely used in other places the trams themselves aren't likely to be a problem, but they need to be tested thoroughly on the network they will operate to iron out any bugs. Not a TfNSW peculiarity, its standard procedure for any new introduction. Its not a complicated line by global standards, being 1 line with 2 forks, but many of the European systems may have been opened in simpler times.

[tonyp]

I know the assumption increasingly on this board appears to be that because TfNSW have an involvement, it must be a dumb idea, but maybe there is a good reason for it that we are not aware of.

The central control centre is easily sufficient to manage this whole line. There's nothing complex about it, barely any junctions and not that many services along it. An auxiliary control centre at a particular location would need to be dealing with some exceptional situation and it usually relies on people on the spot being able to see what's going on, which would be a little difficult underground. I wonder if in fact it is a substation that gets a boost when services double for an event, rather than an operations control? The old system managed hundreds of trams and over 60,000 people at this location without the benefit of a "control room", but of course they had staff on the ground assisting which is what is actually needed.

TfNSW will appreciate your faith in them. My assessment would be that they are quite good on railways, probably still having some inherited expertise plus railway expertise is abundant in the market. Buses they are very ordinary but are nothing much different from the Australian bus industry as a whole (PTA WA excepted) in that regard. Ferries they can't go too far wrong if there's an experienced operator at the operations face. Trams they know nothing about and have compounded that by bringing in heavy-rail expertise to run things. Even worse, they still show a stubborn unwillingness to learn - even from Melbourne would be something, but of course that's in conflict with the NSW-superiority thing.

[moa999]

Normally, new trams would have thousands of hours of testing, but they do things differently here. .

Suspect they are already close to that number.

[tonyp]

There's nothing fundamentally complex about trams. They're larger-capacity guided buses on rail and require only minimal operational intervention beyond the driver. What TfNSW is creating is a train on the street.

[tonyp]

The RMS has clarified the existing road rules with regard to trams:

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/bu ... 17-002.pdf

They also advise that the vehicles be referred to as trams, as in the existing rules and for public clarity. Looks like some of the safety signs already installed might need to be changed. We don't want people being run over by a tram while looking down at the ground trying to work out which of the rails is the light one.

[moa999]

They're larger-capacity guided buses on rail and require only minimal operational intervention beyond the driver. What TfNSW is creating is a train on the street.

Looks around. Can't see 67m articulated bus.. crosses road.

True of the trams of old which had similar capacity to a bus, but these new fangled light rail vehicles are more of a hybrid - particularly when you consider weight and power requirements

[rogf24]

The old Sydney trams where quite long since they often operated coupled with other units. So the trams of old had more capacity than buses. Also, I don't think Citadis X05 was designed as an LRV, it was designed as tram, the Citadis Spirit is an LRV.

[tonyp]

Looks around. Can't see 67m articulated bus.. crosses road.

True of the trams of old which had similar capacity to a bus, but these new fangled light rail vehicles are more of a hybrid - particularly when you consider weight and power requirements

It doesn't matter how long they are, they're still street vehicles. They also have around the same power:weight ratio regardless of how long they are. The previous Sydney system was running 30 metre trams with a capacity of 250 passengers, often at headways of less than one minute. Earlier last century they even tried 45 metre consists (one being a trailer) but it didn't work very well mechanically. Sydney is absolutely no stranger to long street public transport vehicles. Trams of similar length to the CSELR vehicles also run in streets in overseas cities.

We've just become too accustomed to dinky little 60-70 passenger 10-12 metre buses (even then rarely filled to capacity) running about!

[Swift]

I view the tracks as a railway line, particularly when they dedicate cement to them as their ballast. This combined with their length and the railway like platforms and signage classes them as a street train in my eyes.