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Introducing OPAL Card

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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:55 am

Aurora wrote:With OPAL fully deployed, provided you have a valid OPAL Card on you, you have an intention to tap on. Trackwork replacement buses either have their readers closed or none installed, you simply need to provide an intention to tap on, hence a valid OPAL Card.

Are there any regulations covering this situation? Have there been any prosecutions for "not holding a valid ticket" on a rail bus? I suspect anyone on a rail replacement bus is technically liable to prosecution because they haven't tapped on (If it is considered a bus) but it would be a nonsense to prosecute them, If rail replacement buses are considered rail I would argue that the paid area definition doesn't apply.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:03 am

boronia wrote:This guy has the right idea. Why don't they make Opal available in a wrist band you can wear, then you can have the same convenience without the health risks? There is no functional/operational requirement for it to be a card of this nature. Less chance of losing it, too. Would save the time wasted while people hunt through their purse/handbag/wallet trying to find it every time they get on/off a bus or pass through a gate.

A few people actually want the convenience of implants or at least can be induced to get one.[1] [2] [3] Clearly some people have no problem with it as you can see by the number of people around with piercings.

[1] Serafin Vilaplana (interviewed by Katina Michael), The Baja Beach Implant Program. 2009.
[2] Katina Michael, MG Michael, "The Diffusion of RFID Implants for Acopcess Control and ePayments: A case Study on Baha Beach Club in Barcelona", (Video) at 14:47
[3] Wikipedia editors, "Microchip Implant (Human)"

But you are quite right. There was a closed trial of Opal combined with a debit card in a wristband, actually an attachment to a wristband, the iNamo Curl. It was discussed earlier in this thread. TfNSW put the kibosh on this presumably because of their plans to implement contactless. It does not speak particularly well of them that the development was authorised in the first place..

Scheme credit/debit wearables are a thing now you just need to wait for Opal contactless to implement all the current or improved rules of reloadable Opal. That is the best path forward in my opinion.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby molybtek » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:08 am

Passenger 57 wrote:
Aurora wrote:With OPAL fully deployed, provided you have a valid OPAL Card on you, you have an intention to tap on. Trackwork replacement buses either have their readers closed or none installed, you simply need to provide an intention to tap on, hence a valid OPAL Card.

Are there any regulations covering this situation? Have there been any prosecutions for "not holding a valid ticket" on a rail bus? I suspect anyone on a rail replacement bus is technically liable to prosecution because they haven't tapped on (If it is considered a bus) but it would be a nonsense to prosecute them, If rail replacement buses are considered rail I would argue that the paid area definition doesn't apply.


I don't think they can unless the bus has the opal readers turned on... it's just the same as buses with failed opal readers... you're not expected to tap on - because you can't.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:19 pm

It's certainly a reasonable excuse but I don't think the regulations are written in such a way as to take account of equipment failures. The regulations don't recognise the distinction between a valid and non-valid Opal card as far as I recall only that cards need to be processed i.e. tapped on on entry to a bus.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:35 pm

It is not quite as straight forward as that. Remember the case recently where someone travelled on a train, then changed to a rail replacement bus and then back to a train, where the wrong fare was charged because there was a transfer from a train to a bus and then from a bus to a train, instead of a full train fare being charged. The response there was not to tap on and off on the bus in such cases.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:01 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:It is not quite as straight forward as that. Remember the case recently where someone travelled on a train, then changed to a rail replacement bus and then back to a train, where the wrong fare was charged because there was a transfer from a train to a bus and then from a bus to a train, instead of a full train fare being charged. The response there was not to tap on and off on the bus in such cases.

That's practical advice and it certainly is a reasonable excuse to follow that advice but probably still a technical breach of regulations which a over-zealous or ignorant RPO could issue an infringement for.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby mandonov » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:10 pm

I’ve never once seen an RPO on a rail replacement bus, so this seems like an inconsequential scenario.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:21 pm

Quite likely, but failing to tap on or off at a railway station when transferring between rail replacement and rail is likely to lead to a more deep and meaningful conversation.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:10 am

https://transportnsw.info/alerts#/6017428
Opal network outage
UPDATED 4 Mar 09:55

Ongoing

Details
We are currently experiencing outages on some sections of the Opal network due to a power outage at our data centre.

You may not be able to tap on and tap off at some locations on the network. Single Trip Tickets can also not be purchased from ticket machines.

The Opal Travel app and opal.com.au website are also not functioning and you will not be able to top up your card using the app, opal.com.au, 13OPAL (13 67 25) or the top up machines located on the network.

However, you will still be able to top up at retail outlets. We apologise for this inconvenience and we are working with our providers to rectify the issue as soon as possible.

You should still travel with a valid Opal card and tap on and tap off where possible and speak to a staff member if you are experiencing any difficulties.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:29 am

Passenger 57 wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:It is not quite as straight forward as that. Remember the case recently where someone travelled on a train, then changed to a rail replacement bus and then back to a train, where the wrong fare was charged because there was a transfer from a train to a bus and then from a bus to a train, instead of a full train fare being charged. The response there was not to tap on and off on the bus in such cases.

That's practical advice and it certainly is a reasonable excuse to follow that advice but probably still a technical breach of regulations which a over-zealous or ignorant RPO could issue an infringement for.

It is most unlikely the bus would have the ability to recognise that part of the journey in the opal reader (if it actually had one). Usually the reader is turned off or covered over.

I think the problem was actually that the passenger just tapped off at one station, then tapped back on later, with the system identifying two separate trips and charging accordingly.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Passenger 57 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:22 pm

Fleet Lists' meant that and that's the way I read it per the original problem, The time between tap-off and tap-on at the railway stations also needs to be greater than a hour for that problem to occur. Customers will also pay more if they are forced to transfer to regular scheduled bus services and tap on and off on those buses. Omitting to tap on buses when readers are active in order for Opal to calculate the 'correct' fare might lead to difficulties unless unless drivers and RPOs are advised to be tolerant of such behaviour during raIl outages. I don't know that Opal customer care would necessarily care to adjust a higher fare caused by a forced transfer to a scheduled bus service because of a rail fail. Sadly, unlike London Opal doesn't do these sort of adjustments automatically.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby BeauGiles » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:37 am

Contactless payment trial expanded to all Sydney Ferries and light rail, and now also supports American Express and Visa in addition to Mastercard https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... s-payments
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby moa999 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:32 am

Not for the regular commuter though, given it's still charging the more expensive Single Trip fares

Possibly waiting until they turn it on for buses and trains to make it fare equivalent with an Opal card
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:41 am

I cant see them making the fares equivalent to an Opal Card. This is a facility for irregular travellers without an Opal card. The storing of fare information is a major hurdle to be addressed.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:44 am

The Opal website has not yet been updated to include the extension of this facility.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Tonymercury » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:15 pm

BeauGiles wrote:Contactless payment trial expanded to all Sydney Ferries and light rail, and now also supports American Express and Visa in addition to Mastercard https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... s-payments


Link no longer working?
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:19 pm

They may have beaten the gun as Opal has not yet been updated and no official notification has been given yet.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby matthewg » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:41 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:I cant see them making the fares equivalent to an Opal Card. This is a facility for irregular travellers without an Opal card. The storing of fare information is a major hurdle to be addressed.


Works fine in London - the 'contactless' system is backend based, not card based. They don't write data back to the card at all.

Unfortunately, this means you don't get to see what you have been charged when you tap off, all you get is 'success as the gate has no idea where you tapped on, as it's not recorded on the card itself'. To see what you have been charged you need to log into their website and see what is collected and calculated..

'All' Sydney has to do is license the London Oyster code. Cubic has a worldwide license to onsell this code, so Cubic would be in a lead position to implement this in Opal.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:53 pm

Yes that if fine but it still needs to be addressed. Even if it is acquired it still needs to be integrated with the various opal fare requirements. Not necessarily an easy job.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby moa999 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:42 pm

And pinched from @bengrubb Twitter, with photo credit to @jeremybank

Some new signage about card clash and contactless availability.

Image
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:52 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:They may have beaten the gun as Opal has not yet been updated and no official notification has been given yet.

The page is back now together with the official news advice
https://transportnsw.info/news/2018/con ... ey-ferries
Contactless payments available on light rail and Sydney Ferries
Monday 12 March 2018

You can now pay for your fare on any Sydney Ferries or light rail service using a contactless card.

Contactless payments offer a convenient alternative to an Adult Opal single trip ticket without needing to buy a ticket from an Opal ticket machine.

If your payment card displays the contactless payment symbol or you have a mobile device linked to a contactless payment account, then you can use it to tap on at an Opal card reader to pay for your fare.

You can use contactless to pay your fare on services that run to 57 locations across Sydney, including popular tourist destinations like Manly, Darling Harbour, Barangaroo, the International Convention Centre, Star Casino and Sydney Fish Markets.

You can tap on and tap off at an Opal card reader to pay your fare using most American Express, Mastercard and Visa cards, plus mobile wallets on smartphones, tablets and watches.

You will be charged the same as an Adult Opal single trip ticket. If you are entitled to concession fares, you should travel with a Child/Youth, Concession or Gold Senior/Pensioner Opal card to avoid paying a higher fare.

Opal benefits such as daily or weekly fare caps do not apply to contactless payments.

You can still pay for your trip with an Opal card or Opal single trip tickets.

You can only use your card or device to tap on for one fare per trip. You cannot pass the card back to someone else to pay a second fare.

If you decide not to travel after you’ve tapped on simply tap the same card or device at an Opal reader on the same wharf or stop within 15 minutes to reverse the tap on for light rail travel and within 30 minutes for ferries, just as you would with an Opal card.
How to make a contactless transport fare payment

Separate your American Express, Mastercard or Visa card from other cards you’re carrying so your fare is charged to the right card.
If you’re paying with a digital device linked to your credit card, select the card you want to use from your digital wallet.
Tap on with your card or device at the Opal reader before you board the ferry or light rail.
Tap off with the same card or device you tapped on with when you reach your destination, just as you do with an Opal card.

But the Opal website has not caught up yet.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:43 pm

Seems the whole Opal network was down for a while yesterday (Sunday) afternoon. Gates were open at Penrith and readers not reacting.

When I got to Central, there were long queues trying to get out though the bat-wing gates near plat 4, but they weren't opening. Supervisor at the gate made no attempt to assist people. Can these gates be locked in the open position like the older gates?
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby jpp42 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:03 pm

I wonder if the fact that this is rolled out to ferries and light rail at the same time, is another side effect of the light rail poles being configured with the same hardware and basic programming as ferry wharf poles. (Not sure if it's still the case, but for a while when the transport officers scanned your card on light rail, it would show as "Ferry" on their readers.)
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Wouldn't a railway station with poles be the same though? A fixed reader that can't detect which direction you are travelling in. A platform gate can be set directionally to determine whether you are entering or leaving, but I don't know if that affects the ticket reading.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby jpp42 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:13 am

From a backend standpoint one different in the design is that railway station station poles connect to a controller housed inside the station and connect to the existing Railcorp networks (with added provisions for Opal). Ferry and light rail poles don’t have this existing equipment to use, so they have their own equipment boxes (those silver ones with the slanted covers), which connect to an aerial which uses a 3G connection to link over the mobile network to Opal backend. Maybe this is all irrelevant I just thought it was interesting that ferry and light rail were rolled out together and thought of this infrastructure similarity as a possible connection.
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