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Introducing OPAL Card

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby BeauGiles » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:14 pm

boronia wrote:Commonwealth Bank has produced a PayWave card that is about 1/4 the size of a standard credit card. You can attach it to, say, the back of your phone.

Perhaps Opal could do the same thing, making it small enough to stick on the back of a watch or wrist band.

Or you could just use the PayTag when contactless payments are accepted :)
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:07 pm

This PayTag is linked directly to bank accounts, not credit cards.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby matthewg » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:07 am

Swift wrote:In theory, ingenious, in practice, gross:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-id ... e3a489973f

This man is ahead of his time and may lead to a revolution.
[/quote]

People have been doing this ever since NFC was invented. There are plenty of instructions on the 'net for removing the chip and loop from 'smart' cards. Most people just build them into key fobs and the like, but there always has been a trickle of those willing to try more extreme mods.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby matthewg » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:14 am

boronia wrote:This PayTag is linked directly to bank accounts, not credit cards.

That's mearly an implementation detail on the part of the Commonwealth Bank. The actual tag is using the contactless infrastructure for contactless credit cards, so it will be a standard EMV chip. It's just linked to a debit account instead of a credit account.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby moa999 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:17 pm

7News piece on Opal (was advertised during every ad break).

Just about the airport 'hack'. Buying $10 cards and throw away (didn't mention even cheaper ways).

My tea leaves are predicting changes ahead.
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OPAL as a biochip

Postby Roderick Smith » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:37 pm

Transport for NSW can’t cancel biohacker’s Opal card implant because it’s not registered.
news.com.au July 10, 2017.
A SYDNEY man who implanted a public transport card into his hand has performed the ultimate troll on authorities upset by the actions of the biohacker.
After hearing Meow-Ludo Meow-Meow had the chip of an Opal contactless transport card implanted under the skin on his left hand, Transport for NSW attempted to cancel the account because it was a violation of the card’s terms of use.
“[Transport for NSW] does not support the tampering or damaging of Opal cards, which would be a breach of the terms of use,” the government department said.
“Changing the physical attributes of the card may impact the reliability of the Opal card.”
When Transport for NSW cancelled an Opal card belonging to Meow-Meow, it believed the war was won.
Meow-Meow did not register the Opal card chip inserted into his hand. Picture: ABC News Only, the game of cat-and-mouse was just starting thanks to the biohacker’s incredible foresight to not register the Opal chip located under his skin.
“The second they heard what I was doing, they cancelled my card — and they would have done it to the one in my hand if [it was registered],” he told Business Insider.
While it is not illegal to have an unregistered account, it means the card will need to be topped up with value at vending machines. An unregistered card also means it cannot be returned or cancelled if lost or stolen.
Transport for NSW claim the chip is a violation of the card’s terms of use.
Meow-Meow said he will snub the concerns of authorities and leave the chip in his hand for a year.
“I’ve had legal advice today that they can’t forcibly restrain my hand,” he said.
“The whole thing is just ridiculous. I am surprised it’s had this much response. I have bodily sovereignty — I can put stuff in my body if I want.”
The biohacker believes Transport for NSW should be exploring the concept instead of trying to shut it down.
“I understand it’s controversial. I don’t think it would be adopted widescale immediately but if it did [eventually] I wouldn’t be disappointed,” he said.
“I think it represents some exciting opportunities for start-ups to think about.”
www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/transpo ... ee80d3b813
* Look at causes, not symptoms. If management wants a card to be read on every entry and every exit of every stage of every journey, then it has to be readable while sitting inside a purse or wallet, inside a bag or jacket. Tollway tags do that; my skilift ticket does that; public-transport tickets in China do that. If Australian management can't, then don't bleat, and change either the technology or the rules: effective engineering speaks louder than fancy marketing names.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:35 pm

While it is not illegal to have an unregistered account, it means the card will need to be topped up with value at vending machines. An unregistered card also means it cannot be returned or cancelled if lost or stolen.

What??? Someone might chop off his hand to get his card???

Anyway, if he can tap on and off with it, surely he can top it up the same way.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Swift » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:29 pm

I think the government is primarily concerned about discrediting this idea after the publicity this story has received. That is why they have pulled out all stops to get at him.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:13 pm

Perhaps they could identify his card number by matching his taps with CCTV images, and cancel it.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:56 am

Fortunately or unfortunately, whichever "side" you're on, this guy is breaking the opal terms and conditions, specifically, the one that said tampering with a card is forbidden or something like that.

On the other hand.....how is it hurting anyone? He still pays the same and sure maybe it's awkward for transport officers to scan it and - oh wait speaking of which, what would transport officers do if they catch him in public?

There I'm sure they can scan it, they can get his card number. Then can they just go into administration, put in the card number, , find it, click that glorious cancel button? Or maybe if possible, have the card readers "look out" for card number ____ and then block it once a card reader picks it up. voila have fun with that. Meeeoowwwwww!
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Re: OPAL as a biochip

Postby matthewg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:43 am

Roderick Smith wrote:* Look at causes, not symptoms. If management wants a card to be read on every entry and every exit of every stage of every journey, then it has to be readable while sitting inside a purse or wallet, inside a bag or jacket. Tollway tags do that; my skilift ticket does that; public-transport tickets in China do that. If Australian management can't, then don't bleat, and change either the technology or the rules: effective engineering speaks louder than fancy marketing names.


The reason Opal doesn't have card discrimination is to allow contact-less banking card payments in the future. Sure you can stick a big loop around the door and read cards out of people's pockets like the ski fields do, but then how does the system know which card out of 3 or 4 in the wallet to use ?.
London had discrimination, I used to never remove my Oyster card from my wallet when in London. Then they 'upgraded' to support contactless bank cards. Everyone had to get into the habit of taking their cards out after years of just tap a wallet or purse. Payment directly by bank card is apparently popular, 30% of London trips are apparently paid for by banking card instead of the system specific Oyster card now, so the pain was probably worth it,

It's certainly an option in the readers to do discrimination, our access system at work uses MiFare cards. The 'simple' touch panel readers have discrimination, you can tap a wallet full of NFC cards and the lock opens. The 'advanced' model with a keypad doesn't. Have to ensure only the right card is in the 'near field'. Why the system isn't consistent, I don't know.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby matthewg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:50 am

Jurassic_Joke wrote:On the other hand.....how is it hurting anyone? He still pays the same and sure maybe it's awkward for transport officers to scan it and - oh wait speaking of which, what would transport officers do if they catch him in public?

At that point, they have his card number. While they can check he's paid the correct fare, he has broken the 'no tampering with card' condition of use. The rules say that can confiscate a tampered with card, which would be a bit difficult in this case.

Jurassic_Joke wrote:There I'm sure they can scan it, they can get his card number. Then can they just go into administration, put in the card number, find it, click that glorious cancel button? Or maybe if possible, have the card readers "look out" for card number ____ and then block it once a card reader picks it up. voila, have fun with that. Meeeoowwwwww!


Once his hand is scanned in a revenue check, they have the card number, and you can be sure the card number will be marked as invalid shortly afterwards and within an hour will be on the card blacklist across the entire Opal network.

Then he can have fun in court trying to claim TfNSW unfairly treated him by revoking his otherwise 'valid' Opal card.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Swift » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:51 pm

^ he won't have a leg to stand on if the conditions of use state clearly that no tampering allowed.
It also states that the card remains the property of Opel..hiiiissssss!!
I have found dumped Opal cats.. err cards on the street a couple of times, so plenty do get lost, so why chase this bloke?? I don't think many Sydney people would "copycat" this.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:20 pm

IMG_8497.JPG
IMG_8497.JPG (78.01 KiB) Viewed 1582 times


Not sure if trolling or "let's make it easier for me to identify concession holders, so I can do my job of checking concession holders easier"
:D
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm

I've seen that a couple of times.

The orange light already identifies concession card users. I put it down to a reader fault.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby BeauGiles » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:33 am

Jurassic_Joke wrote:
IMG_8497.JPG


Not sure if trolling or "let's make it easier for me to identify concession holders, so I can do my job of checking concession holders easier"

Someone probably pushed the wrong button. The readers do have ‘concession only’ as well as ‘full fare only’ modes, though when I’ve seen them there’s been no transport officers nearby - so I put it down to a wrong button.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:53 pm

BeauGiles wrote:
Jurassic_Joke wrote:
IMG_8497.JPG


Not sure if trolling or "let's make it easier for me to identify concession holders, so I can do my job of checking concession holders easier"

Someone probably pushed the wrong button. The readers do have ‘concession only’ as well as ‘full fare only’ modes, though when I’ve seen them there’s been no transport officers nearby - so I put it down to a wrong button.


Ahh I see. Interesting the options (buttons) themselves do exist, for then I wonder what purpose they would serve. Lady infront of me with her adult card looked confounded when she saw why her card got rejected yesterday ^
:D
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:37 pm

I sometimes wonder if the staff take much notice. I often go through Central and the barriers are still set for the previous peak flow.
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OPAL fine after failure

Postby Roderick Smith » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Roderick.

You can be fined $550 for not buying a ticket, even if the only machine to do so is broken.
news.com.au August 18, 2017.
THIS morning I was met with another reminder why Sydney is a backwards city, with terrible infrastructure for its residents.
My grievance comes from being threatened with a $550 fine for not having a valid light rail ticket, despite the ONLY ticket machine at my stop being out of order.
I generally ride my pushbike everywhere I go because it’s a cheaper and healthier alternative to public transport, but circumstances forced me to catch the light rail to work this morning.
As it was the first time in months since I had used public transport, I knew my Opal card would likely need to be topped up — only I was advised this wouldn’t be possible.
“Sorry, this machine in temporarily closed,” the message read.
When the only ticket machine within kilometres is broken, but it's still your fault.
With the light rail quickly approaching, I snapped a picture of the sole ticket machine on the platform to prove my story to any ticket inspectors and hopped on board.
When the ticket inspectors boarded a few stops later, I thought it would be as simple as showing them their infrastructure was broken and carrying on with my day.
And this is when things started to get ridiculous.
After being advised I was facing a maximum fine of $550 for travelling without a ticket, I questioned how this was even a possibility given the circumstances at hand.
The ticket inspector said it didn’t matter that the machine was broken because there are other ways to top up my Opal card before boarding.
His first argument was I should have walked to the nearest Opal retailer, topped up my card and then returned to the light rail station to board the next train after this task was done.
But given I was in Rozelle Bay, the closest retailer was just under one kilometre away and would have been a 10 minute walk each way, plus however long it took me to get served.
Oh and this isn’t even to mention the store didn’t open until I was already on the light rail, so I would have had an extra-long wait to appease the ticket inspector.
Oh our machine is broken. Just walk 20 minutes to ensure you are doing the right thing.
After I pointed out how preposterous such an idea was, the ticket inspector told me I should have not gotten on the light rail until I had used the online service to top up my Opal card.
While I could have done that, I don’t see why I should have to wait at least 15 minutes for the next light rail and be late to work because the system Transport NSW had in place was broken.
And given Rozelle Bay is a single trip ticket machine, why am I being forced to take the more expensive option?
Given I rarely catch public transport; I should be allowed to only pay the bare minimum needed to get me to work if I so choose.
Or what if it was the end of my monthly pay cycle and I didn’t have the $10 minimum to use the online top up service, but had just enough for single ticket. Surely, you cannot be fined for that.
Well according to the ticket inspector, yes you can because you are breaking the law.
I thought my arguments were valid and logical, but the ticket inspector was not done yet.
So even though the broken machine removes an option, I am still at fault?
After the “great” advice of telling me to walk to the ends of the Earth or spend more money than required because of Transport NSW’s mistake, his lecture got even more absurd than I thought was possible.
When he scanned my Opal card, he saw the balance was low and even made comment that I hadn’t used it for months.
Then he said I could still be fined because I should have topped up my card when I last used it to ensure I had money in case the machine was broken.
So hold up. Clearly the lack of use shows I rarely use public transport, so why would I spend money topping it up well in advance when I should be able to do it easily at the station when I next decide to use the light rail.
Or what if I had no money at the time and that’s why I had let it fall so low?
Apparently this doesn’t matter and I deserved to be treated like a criminal when using a tax payer funded service that is inadequate.
In the end, I was let off with a caution because a search of the database showed I had a clean record when catching public transport.
While some might consider this a win, it’s hard not to feel annoyed at the fact I was publicly lectured for Transport NSW’s lack of ability to provide to a sufficient service.
Shame on you, Transport NSW.
News.com.au has contacted Transport NSW for comment.
Have you had a similar experience? Continue the conversation in the comments below or with Matthew Dunn on Facebook and Twitter.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/ ... 9ded5ce646
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:52 am

Glad the media has finally noticed this - they changed the legislation in June to remove the ability to pay at destination when ticketing (or top up) facilities are broken or unavailable.

The previous legislation stated that a person must hold a valid ticket unless the person boarded at a location with no working ticket facilities available.

The new rules say: You need to carry a valid ticket for travel, even if there were no working facilities available to buy or top up your Opal card where you began your trip.

I imagine this is to encourage everyone onto an Opal card with auto top up - it was a little impractical for many infrequent users before with the minimum $40 but more reasonable now at $10.
Last edited by andy_centralcoast on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Swift » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:57 am

NSW is like a police state, riddled with rules and restrictions.
Not the democracy of old.
Liberal has never been more ironic.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby moa999 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:04 pm

andy_centralcoast wrote:Glad the media has finally noticed this - they changed the legislation in June to remove the ability to pay at destination when ticketing (or top up) facilities are broken or unavailable.


Which I have no issue with.
The government wants you to use auto top-up.

If you Choose not to use auto top-up it's your job to ensure you have sufficient funds for the Minimum Tap-on - you can online top-up, use the app, over 1000 Opal retailers or the other hundreds of machines.

No different to stepping onto a bus with an Opal card with $1 balance and a credit card only.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:25 pm

The difference with buses though is that with the exception of buses clearly marked "pre pay" you can buy Opal single bus tickets on-board from the driver. And the driver will probably let you on without a ticket if the machine is broken, similar to when the Opal readers have failed and drivers just wave you through.

All of us here know better, but I'd guess most of Sydney still believes you can buy a train ticket at a train station. Especially those who don't use the system frequently. My main issue with this change is that it fines people who've made an honest mistake and tried to buy a ticket from a faulty machine, not people who are intentionally fare evading.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby boronia » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:29 pm

The guy hasa an Opal card, so he obviously has the need to travel on PT at some stage. How difficult is it to ensure that he keeps the minimum balance on the card to start his journey? It only needs to be $5, surely no-one in his situation is that poor.

I equate his "machine not working" to being similar to having to pay a cash fare and complaining that you don't have any money because your local ATM was out of order.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Postby Roderick Smith » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:18 am

It should be possible to rely on the machine working, otherwise why have them at all? Transport management is always obsessed with revenue protection and not with service provision. Its first priority is its own convenience. If the machine wasn't working, the fine should not have been issued. In any other area of customer service, failure by management leads to an apology and some sort of concession.
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