Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

Carrots should be used in conjunction to sticks. People without Opal cards will hold up the bus so you may as well sell them one to avoid holding up the next bus they catch. Furthermore, Opal single trip tickets are not actually single trip on ferries and trains,
Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Passenger 57 wrote:Carrots should be used in conjunction to sticks. People without Opal cards will hold up the bus so you may as well sell them one to avoid holding up the next bus they catch. Furthermore, Opal single trip tickets are not actually single trip on ferries and trains,
Or you know, they could also just give in to the RWNJ b.s. that is fed to them to convince them NOT to get an Opal Card in the first place. We are not living in the 15th century anymore. It is easy to go on the website and have one mailed to you for free.

Yes obviously they need to be sold a ticket if they do not have one, but they will pay for the privilege.

If people choose not to get on board with the system then I dont really have sympathy - government made it clear they only want people using those tickets as a last resort. Last resort does not equal "I dont want an Opal Card".
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Swift »

Passenger 57 wrote:Carrots should be used in conjunction to sticks. People without Opal cards will hold up the bus so you may as well sell them one to avoid holding up the next bus they catch. Furthermore, Opal single trip tickets are not actually single trip on ferries and trains,
You are so soft to these disruptive time bandits. We need to move forward and stop treating one person as important enough to affect the time a public bus stands at a stop any more than it takes to board and tap.
We need to operate in a collective, not a world operated by VIPs (very insignificant persons). , Those days belong in the past.
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Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

There could always be an additional fee for purchasing Opal on-board. Selling single use tickets on-board rather than Opal cards just validates their behaviour. I happen to think that customer service is part of the function of being a driver. If you don't like customer service don't drive a bus.

Yes, you want buses to be fast to board but you also want transport to be easily accessible by visitors. The simplest solution is to implement contactless but the Government doesn't seem to be in any hurry to do that.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by boronia »

The non-availability of Opal cards on buses is nothing to do with the drivers' attitudes to customer service. Perhaps most of them would be happy to do so if TfNSW allowed it. The same logic applies at railway stations.
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Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

boronia wrote:The non-availability of Opal cards on buses is nothing to do with the drivers' attitudes to customer service.
I wasn't implying that was the case. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the contract with the consortium does not permit on bus sales. Perhaps that may also explain why contactless is looking as if it may only ever be offered as an alternative to Opal singles rather an alternative/replacement to the current stored value card.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Passenger 57 wrote: Yes, you want buses to be fast to board but you also want transport to be easily accessible by visitors. The simplest solution is to implement contactless but the Government doesn't seem to be in any hurry to do that.
To be honest, when I was last in Amsterdam, they have a really fantastic system on their buses (and trams) and I’d love to see it at least considered for sometime in the future. Perhaps Sydney doesn’t even need to install EFTPOS terminals as we can see through the Manly trial, cubic readers can already read smartcards. But can they read international credit / debit cards? Or would installing an EFT terminal be a solution? I guess perhaps not because installing an EFT reader on 5000 buses all over again would probably be too much of a bureaucratic process.

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Buses and trams are completely cashless in Amsterdam, this decision was made to improve driver safety and clamp down on muggings but also I read in a report, to attempt to improve on time running for drivers . Metro still accepts cash as you top up or buy tickets from a machine - something that doesn’t hold up anyone else, nor is as susceptible to getting “mugged”..

Only ways to pay on a bus or tram is to either tap on with the nationwide smartcard with PAYG/periodical , or buy a 1hour ticket (a disposable cardboard smartcard that can be tapped as many times within the time limit) from the driver using your international credit / debit card (so even tourists’ cards work), with the EFT terminal. Paying with contactless felt faster from what I observed because it negates the need for both parties to fumble with/count cash, where instead only the passenger taps their card or keys in a PIN.

So some other countries are quite lenient with transfers and single tickets, but NSW is clearly against and it’s understandable because they just want everyone to have an Opal Card. It’s simply a matter of policy position.

Nah but really - and while I’m pretty sure this is something Constance would approve of with his 22nd century mindset - I’d love to see NSW Buses completely cashless in the future sometime. We don’t really need it, and it makes the journey faster and safer (and possibly more convenient for those who don’t like carrying cash) for everyone.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Tonymercury »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Buses and trams are completely cashless in Amsterdam, t

And the main card, the OOV-chipkaart, is actually a very handy national public transport card, with Amsterdam specific cards available for tourists etc.


Note that in Eastern and South Eastern Sydney there are now very few cash fares paid
Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

Jurassic_Joke wrote:But can they read international credit / debit cards?
Yes. Most if not all contactless (currently Mastercard only) cards that conform to EMV and allow offline transactions (without PIN or signature) should work I would say. Tfl has this to say about their implementation:
Tfl wrote: American Express (AMEX)
All American Express contactless payment cards.

MasterCard
Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued outside the UK are accepted.

Visa
Some cards issued in the USA, Canada and the Netherlands are not accepted.
Jurassic_Joke wrote: So some other countries are quite lenient with transfers and single tickets, but NSW is clearly against and it’s understandable because they just want everyone to have an Opal Card. It’s simply a matter of policy position.
And that policy stems for cluelessness. There still remains a bias or at least of lack of understanding against fare integration. The Government didn't even follow the principle of the IPART recommendation to set the transfer rebate at the price of the cheapest fare in the first place let alone increase the rebate at the last fare increase.

As much as I don't like Melbourne's Myki only policy (primarily because of its non-refundable fee) at least it is coherent. They have Myki vending machines and you can buy and top up a Myki on buses (but unfortunately not on trams.) Paradoxically, the Melbourne fare system makes it easy to do singles and that was the original plan until it was scrapped after the machines were delivered with a change of Government. Top up minimums are also far lower. However, their refund policy is just as unfriendly as ours to overseas visitors.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Swift »

Note that in Eastern and South Eastern Sydney there are now very few cash fares paid
I bet the inflexible old fuddy duddys in the lower North continue to insist on paying by cash and unapologetically pay with blood oranges and pineapples.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

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Passenger 57 wrote: As much as I don't like Melbourne's Myki only policy (primarily because of its non-refundable fee) at least it is coherent. They have Myki vending machines and you can buy and top up a Myki on buses (but unfortunately not on trams.) Paradoxically, the Melbourne fare system makes it easy to do singles and that was the original plan until it was scrapped after the machines were delivered with a change of Government. Top up minimums are also far lower. However, their refund policy is just as unfriendly as ours to overseas visitors.
What are the Myki minimum top ups compared with Opal?
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Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

$1 except for online and telephone top ups where the minimum is $10. The maximum is $250 except for buses where it is $20,
matthewg
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by matthewg »

Passenger 57 wrote: As much as I don't like Melbourne's Myki only policy (primarily because of its non-refundable fee) at least it is coherent. They have Myki vending machines and you can buy and top up a Myki on buses (but unfortunately not on trams.)
That they have vending machines that issue cards and the lower minimum top-up is the only thing that in Myki you could say is better than Opal.

The vehicle machines are still slow and inconsistent, as user you need to know how the fare system works or it will overcharge you (doesn't know about the free city zone, YOU need to know if to tap your card or not),

Nearly every visit to Melbourne I've had an issue of some sort that needed an adjustment. IMHO the Myki system was never finished.

While there are aspects of Opal that are not ideal (mostly in the policy department) the actual Opal system works way better than Myki.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

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Passenger 57 wrote:$1 except for online and telephone top ups where the minimum is $10. The maximum is $250 except for buses where it is $20,
So as asked before how does not compare with Opal - you have only given the Myki figures.
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Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

matthewg wrote: That they have vending machines that issue cards and the lower minimum top-up is the only thing that in Myki you could say is better than Opal.
You are selling Myki policy short:

Myki has:
  • Full fare integration
  • Weekend and public holiday cap rather than a politically motivated artificially low Sunday only cap
  • Proportionate daily cap
  • Longer term fixed discount pricing via passes (a weekly capping mechanism would work well with Myki and originally one was planned.)
  • Free weekend travel for seniors with the concession cap applying at other times.
I'm about the only one here that prefers its zone system but I prefer systems with smaller and non-concentric zones. This form of zones was actually tried in Melbourne as the Neighbourhood system in the days of paper tickets but later abandoned. Overlapping zones is a brilliant idea.
While there are aspects of Opal that are not ideal (mostly in the policy department) the actual Opal system works way better than Myki.
Myki's problems are mostly fixable with a reimplementation but I have little hope that Opal will have its flaws recognised let alone resolved. Opal has a good implementation of its flawed policy and fare rules whereas Myki seems to be a flawed implementation of reasonably good fare system and policy.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

Fleet Lists wrote:
Passenger 57 wrote:$1 except for online and telephone top ups where the minimum is $10. The maximum is $250 except for buses where it is $20,
So as asked before how does not compare with Opal - you have only given the Myki figures.
I assumed you knew perfectly well what that the Opal minimums were but nevertheless: Adults: $10, Child/concession $5, Seniors/Pensioners: $2.50 ($5 online). In addition the Government has announced that in 2018 that top up amounts via digital channels will be variable and, in my interpretation of that press release though not expectation, without any minimum.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

I knew except for the final bit but lots of other people may not have known. When making such claims about systems it is always nice to back up your argument with figures.
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Frosty
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Frosty »

There are some downsides with Myki being the physical hardware & software also short fares are very expensive. As myki with the Melbourne fare system is basically a singular fare zone making short fares quite expensive vs Sydney

https://twitter.com/manlyfastferry/stat ... 3694921728 Some news for Manly Fast Ferry so hopefully goes well, good timings just before the middle of summer.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by moa999 »

Had my first Bus RPO experience on Oxford St at lunch.
311 service with about 15 on it.

Four officers front and back.
Quickly scanned everyone in under 30secs using the phones, removing one person travelling on student card without student id - claimed to have finished uni a month ago before being asked to step off.

Didn't tap off so default fare, and it's a 30min frequency in the middle of the day on that bus.
Plus a fine I suspect
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

moa999 wrote:Had my first Bus RPO experience on Oxford St at lunch.
311 service with about 15 on it.

Four officers front and back.
Quickly scanned everyone in under 30secs using the phones, removing one person travelling on student card without student id - claimed to have finished uni a month ago before being asked to step off.

Didn't tap off so default fare, and it's a 30min frequency in the middle of the day on that bus.
Plus a fine I suspect
Wish they caught someone that didn’t tap on :////

Then they’d get whacked with a $200 fine they actually deserve and will fully pay, in this case the Student I believe has a chance of overturning it by appealing if he has evidence of his Student ID at home? Not exactly sure how the procedure works. But I remember a statistic “less than 4% of fines result in being overturned”
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by boronia »

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moa999
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by moa999 »

Quicker than expected??

Given all the equipment is unchanged, and the backend bought from TfL, I had been expecting a far quicker rollout than has occured.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by matthewg »

moa999 wrote:
Quicker than expected??

Given all the equipment is unchanged, and the backend bought from TfL, I had been expecting a far quicker rollout than has occured.
What they have trialled so far didn't appear to be using TfL's software. Contactless was equivalent to buying a single ride ticket and not using an Opal Card. TfL's software makes contactless cards work like Oyster with the same fares and caps. This is NOT what the current Opal Contactless trial has done.

My guess is the consortium and/or the NSW Government doesn't want to commit to paying for the contactless backend processing software until they are sure there is demand for it, so they cobbled up something to run single trip payments through the existing payment gateway.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

moa999 wrote: Given all the equipment is unchanged, and the backend bought from TfL, I had been expecting a far quicker rollout than has occured.
Even though the software may have been bought, that does not mean that is does not require any adjustments for our environment. They want to make sure that it fits in with all other parts of the software to which adjustments have been made.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by simonl »

Passenger 57 wrote:
matthewg wrote: That they have vending machines that issue cards and the lower minimum top-up is the only thing that in Myki you could say is better than Opal.
You are selling Myki policy short:

Myki has:
  • Full fare integration
  • Weekend and public holiday cap rather than a politically motivated artificially low Sunday only cap
  • Proportionate daily cap
  • Longer term fixed discount pricing via passes (a weekly capping mechanism would work well with Myki and originally one was planned.)
  • Free weekend travel for seniors with the concession cap applying at other times.
I'm about the only one here that prefers its zone system but I prefer systems with smaller and non-concentric zones. This form of zones was actually tried in Melbourne as the Neighbourhood system in the days of paper tickets but later abandoned. Overlapping zones is a brilliant idea.
While there are aspects of Opal that are not ideal (mostly in the policy department) the actual Opal system works way better than Myki.
Myki's problems are mostly fixable with a reimplementation but I have little hope that Opal will have its flaws recognised let alone resolved. Opal has a good implementation of its flawed policy and fare rules whereas Myki seems to be a flawed implementation of reasonably good fare system and policy.
None of those things in Myki are improvements over Opal and Myki is far slower and more cumbersome to use than Opal. The one thing Myki does have is it is always sold at the point of first contact.
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