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Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby swtt » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:56 am

tonyp wrote:
Cazza wrote: Then, you can run feeder buses

Something that TfNSW has not proved very adept at planning so far.

WPH would be considered to be in the Pennant Hills/Beecroft Station catchments, thats why they put the station further west. A centre will eventually develop at Cherrybrook station. I dont think there's anything wrong with the station location, it's the feeder bus services that are the problem.


It could be at least 10 years away, a la Mascot Station :P
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:17 am

Transtopic wrote:The reason why there is no station at WPH ((Thompsons Corner) is because of the much deeper alignment to pass under Devlin's Creek. A deep station there wasn't feasible. The original NWRL proposal had a much shallower alignment from a junction with the Northern Line just south of Beecroft, avoiding the need to go under Devlin's Creek, which would have made a station at WPH feasible. Alas, the Beecroft/Cheltenham NIMBYs put an end to that.

That's not the only reason. They decided to space the line away from the Beecroft/Cheltenham catchment. No point having two train systems serving a low-density area of Volvo-driving whingers. It's also produced another benefit of a long straight section of line with 100 km/h running to reduce the journey time out to the NW.

swtt wrote:
It could be at least 10 years away, a la Mascot Station :P

Probably the best proof that there's actually no conspiracy to boost up the metro to make it look good vs the suburban system! Otherwise why would they introduce a system with enormous capacity that's mainly accessed by car and bus, then restrict the capacity of the carparks and provide a terrible feeder bus network, with the outcome of throttling the numbers of people who can access the line to make use of its capacity? [facepalm] I was naively expecting that the line would be supported by something like the Perth bus system, but I forgot that it's TfNSW at work.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:17 am

burrumbus wrote:Commercial development will pop up around most of the stations because there are simply people there all the time on/off trains.
The feeder bus services at Cherrybrook are abysmal to say the least.
TFNSW have just done a terrible job with it.

It seems that the first retail building is already under construction at Cherrybrook Station (from aldredd at SCF):

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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby grimlock81 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:14 am

I would say the already opened cafe at Cherrybrook is the first retail building.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:32 am

grimlock81 wrote:I would say the already opened cafe at Cherrybrook is the first retail building.

I think that cafe is in the main station building? This is a good guide to the retail spaces within the stations themselves, including Cherrybrook:

http://sydneymetroretail.com.au/wp-cont ... randum.pdf
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby grimlock81 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:39 pm

tonyp wrote:
grimlock81 wrote:I would say the already opened cafe at Cherrybrook is the first retail building.

I think that cafe is in the main station building? This is a good guide to the retail spaces within the stations themselves, including Cherrybrook:

http://sydneymetroretail.com.au/wp-cont ... randum.pdf

Thanks for the link, very informative. The current cafe is a kiosk on the outside, it's roughly the yellow area marked "Retail Lease Area" in that PDF document but probably somewhat closer to the gates than indicated.

Your photo is from the other side, which doesn't seem to have been marked on the PDF document.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:54 pm

Everything running like clockwork on the metro today. Staff said they're almost as busy in weekends as weekdays. 500 cars at Tallawong yesterday afternoon. 300 today, 500 at Kellyville, 300 at Bella Vista today.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Cazza » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:53 pm

And this is before it's even reached the CBD!! The sheer success of the metro clearly shows that frequency is freedom. Provide convenient transport and people will come in swarms.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Swift » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:57 pm

Sydney has been public transport impoverished for decades. This is to be expected.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:51 pm

Cazza wrote:And this is before it's even reached the CBD!! The sheer success of the metro clearly shows that frequency is freedom. Provide convenient transport and people will come in swarms.

Tallewong in particular seems to be acting as a sump for the entire NW to the west of the line. If the bus services continue to be weak, I can see the Tallewong car parks being rebuilt as multi-storey structures in the future, increasing the capacity to four or five thousand cars. When the service to the city goes through with its 50 minute journey time, the pressure will really be on. The biggest problem will be people having difficulty actually accessing the stations. The general restriction on street parking close to the stations adds to the pain when the car parks are full.This will cause a lot of complaints as it already is at Cherrybrook. It will also be interesting to see future Opal figures to see the extent to which it poaches from the Richmond line.

I note that pedestrians have a generally rough time with station access. I was surprised at the large numbers of people walking, even on Saturday night and even along Windsor Rd which is a very unpleasant experience. I think today's generations of planners and designers were born with a steering wheel in their hands because, just as they can't relate to mobility issues, they certainly can't think like a pedestrian either. Everything is designed for cars and able-bodied people. The metro has enormous capacity but the people creating the supporting infrastructure and services seem to be making it as hard as possible to enable people to access it and exploit that capacity.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Transtopic » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:14 pm

tonyp wrote:
Transtopic wrote:The reason why there is no station at WPH ((Thompsons Corner) is because of the much deeper alignment to pass under Devlin's Creek. A deep station there wasn't feasible. The original NWRL proposal had a much shallower alignment from a junction with the Northern Line just south of Beecroft, avoiding the need to go under Devlin's Creek, which would have made a station at WPH feasible. Alas, the Beecroft/Cheltenham NIMBYs put an end to that.

That's not the only reason. They decided to space the line away from the Beecroft/Cheltenham catchment. No point having two train systems serving a low-density area of Volvo-driving whingers. It's also produced another benefit of a long straight section of line with 100 km/h running to reduce the journey time out to the NW.
That's a load of crap. The sole reason a station wasn't included at WPH, which would have been the most logical location for a station at an established Neighbourhood Shopping Centre and at a major traffic junction, instead in the middle of nowhere at the "Cherrybrook" location, was because a station wasn't feasible with the much deeper alignment. This figment of your imagination that it was also because of it being too close to the Beecroft/Cheltenham catchment is pure fantasy. Based on your logic, there shouldn't be a metro station at Epping, which is clearly absurd.

WPH covers a vast area, including to the west of Pennant Hills Rd, and a metro station at the Thompsons Corner Shopping Centre (intersection of Pennant Hills Rd and Castle Hill Rd) would have been more convenient for most commuters, rather than Pennant Hills or Beecroft and certainly not Cheltenham. I don't think the government would have given a stuff about how it affected Sydney Trains' patronage. The current Cherrybrook station is a second best option because it was more feasible and cheaper in an engineering sense than a deeper station at Thompsons Corner. Although it's now academic, it probably would have been more appropriate to name the station West Pennant Hills, as it's some distance from the centre of Cherrybrook. The suburb of Cherrybrook is more closely aligned with the Pennant Hills catchment area, although it will undoubtedly be split on the fringes.

A station at the current "Cherrybrook" location or at Thompsons Corner wouldn't have any effect on the overall journey times on the metro. It's still some 4-5kms between Thompsons Corner and Epping which is more than enough distance to enable the metro trains to reach their maximum speed.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Transtopic » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:39 pm

grimlock81 wrote:I would say the already opened cafe at Cherrybrook is the first retail building.
And probably the last. I hardly think that 20 sq m of retail space constitutes major retail/commercial development opportunities. The area around the station has been subject to developer speculation for residential development, which has so far come to nothing.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby ed24 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:52 pm

tonyp wrote:
Cazza wrote:And this is before it's even reached the CBD!! The sheer success of the metro clearly shows that frequency is freedom. Provide convenient transport and people will come in swarms.

Tallewong in particular seems to be acting as a sump for the entire NW to the west of the line. If the bus services continue to be weak, I can see the Tallewong car parks being rebuilt as multi-storey structures in the future, increasing the capacity to four or five thousand cars. When the service to the city goes through with its 50 minute journey time, the pressure will really be on. The biggest problem will be people having difficulty actually accessing the stations. The general restriction on street parking close to the stations adds to the pain when the car parks are full.This will cause a lot of complaints as it already is at Cherrybrook. It will also be interesting to see future Opal figures to see the extent to which it poaches from the Richmond line.

I note that pedestrians have a generally rough time with station access. I was surprised at the large numbers of people walking, even on Saturday night and even along Windsor Rd which is a very unpleasant experience. I think today's generations of planners and designers were born with a steering wheel in their hands because, just as they can't relate to mobility issues, they certainly can't think like a pedestrian either. Everything is designed for cars and able-bodied people. The metro has enormous capacity but the people creating the supporting infrastructure and services seem to be making it as hard as possible to enable people to access it and exploit that capacity.

Agreed - I visited Tallawong recently and was surprised how extensive the car parking already is with more to come.

Connecting the missing link to Schofields would also be a better solution than the feeder buses/car parking as well of course but that seems to be a long way away now.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:32 am

Transtopic wrote:That's a load of crap. The sole reason a station wasn't included at WPH, which would have been the most logical location for a station at an established Neighbourhood Shopping Centre and at a major traffic junction, instead in the middle of nowhere at the "Cherrybrook" location, was because a station wasn't feasible with the much deeper alignment. This figment of your imagination that it was also because of it being too close to the Beecroft/Cheltenham catchment is pure fantasy.

You've missed the boat. This decision was made twenty years ago:

http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/49629/200 ... l-min.html

WPH (which is only 1.5 km from Beecroft Station) was one of three options considered and they settled on what they then called Franklin Rd as being more centred on existing development as well as offering opportunities for future development. The land resumptions would also have started back then. I used to live at WPH. I would consider WPH in the middle of nowhere, Cherrybrook in the middle of a large dense blob of residential area. There are also traffic considerations around a railway station. WPH is a traffic sewer and throwing station access traffic into that mix would make it even worse. Park and rides work best in more isolated locations.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:43 am

ed24 wrote:Agreed - I visited Tallawong recently and was surprised how extensive the car parking already is with more to come.

Connecting the missing link to Schofields would also be a better solution than the feeder buses/car parking as well of course but that seems to be a long way away now.

Schofields Station carpark was quite empty on Sunday afternoon, while Tallawong had people cruising around the carparks looking for a spot - I was lucky zipping into one ahead of another car and then when we left there were a couple of cars waiting to grab my spot! Bear in mind that it can be speculated that a lot of people would be using the metro to go to Castle Hill and Chatswood as much as the city and it would be interesting to see figures on this. They certainly made a poor planning decision back in the 2000s not to make a connection with the Richmond line first off rather than deferring it to later.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Cazza » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:05 am

tonyp wrote:WPH is a traffic sewer and throwing station access traffic into that mix would make it even worse. Park and rides work best in more isolated locations.


That is because Park and Rides don't, and never will work as a sustainable, efficient or even remotely viable option as a "first/last mile" trip. Yes, some parking is required at selected stations. But most car parks end up coming out at upwards of $40,000 a parking space! Imagine the amount of feeder services you could run instead of a 500 space car park at that price... (for those slow at maths, it comes out at about $20 million :D )

These car parks are a waste of valuable space in such prime real-estate. Especially since they are free, they generate zero return for investment. I'm sure you're allover the Perth parking model Tony, and how an introduction of just $2 per day provides massive benefits. Please, throw in some apartments or other TOD's instead (which I believe is the case for most station precincts along the line).
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:20 am

Cazza wrote:
That is because Park and Rides don't, and never will work as a sustainable, efficient or even remotely viable option as a "first/last mile" trip. Yes, some parking is required at selected stations. But most car parks end up coming out at upwards of $40,000 a parking space! Imagine the amount of feeder services you could run instead of a 500 space car park at that price... (for those slow at maths, it comes out at about $20 million :D )

These car parks are a waste of valuable space in such prime real-estate. Especially since they are free, they generate zero return for investment. I'm sure you're allover the Perth parking model Tony, and how an introduction of just $2 per day provides massive benefits. Please, throw in some apartments or other TOD's instead (which I believe is the case for most station precincts along the line).

Not arguing this at all, I actually fully agree with you. Carparks are a waste of valuable land and certainly not the best economic use of it. The Perth carparks are probably the worst examples considering they're ground level and occupy enormous expanses of land compared to the Sydney "high-rise" equivalents - though there are not the pressures on real estate there that there are in Sydney. This is also a significant reason that large P+R parking is at more isolated locations (like Tallawong, Kellyville) rather than robbing significant centres of scarcer land (like Rouse Hill where there is no P+R).

The difference is that Perth has put its back into establishing excellent feeder services to actively discourage people from demanding parking space, unlike the half-arsed effort we see in NW Sydney. One thing I noticed staying at Rouse Hill in the weekend is how infrequently one sees a bus going past, compared to the constant bustle of silver and green Transperth buses one sees over there. (On the subject of colour, as Robert Henderson's photos show, it's a very colourful livery scene that one sees out in that terminus buspark at Rouse Hill!)

However....... the one big issue that you have to bear in mind in the typical Australian city is the one that regrettably justifies these carparks, the fact that most people will drive anyway and it's an issue of whether you want them to complete the entire journey by car, thus exacerbating congestion city-wide, or whether you try to "head them off at the pass" by giving them parking at a railway station to divert them off most of their planned car journey. Yes it's a significant price to pay but it's a price that unfortunately we have to pay until such time as we can soak the ground with 15 minute-headway feeder buses everywhere.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby stupid_girl » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:45 pm

tonyp wrote:
ed24 wrote:Agreed - I visited Tallawong recently and was surprised how extensive the car parking already is with more to come.

Connecting the missing link to Schofields would also be a better solution than the feeder buses/car parking as well of course but that seems to be a long way away now.

Schofields Station carpark was quite empty on Sunday afternoon, while Tallawong had people cruising around the carparks looking for a spot - I was lucky zipping into one ahead of another car and then when we left there were a couple of cars waiting to grab my spot! Bear in mind that it can be speculated that a lot of people would be using the metro to go to Castle Hill and Chatswood as much as the city and it would be interesting to see figures on this. They certainly made a poor planning decision back in the 2000s not to make a connection with the Richmond line first off rather than deferring it to later.

With half hourly frequency on Richmond line, the patronage attracted by such a connection would be minimal. It should be connected in the future but not a top priority.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby rogf24 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:49 pm

It's every 15 minutes at Schofields once you add in T5 trains on weekdays. Shame they cut T5 to Quakers Hill on weekends but thats not super important while there's no metro connection.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:12 pm

A couple of emerging developments from the car parks, courtesy of the Hills metro users Facebook page which is good for a laugh sometimes, but not for the owners of the couple of specced-up cars photographed parked at Tallawong and up on bricks with their wheels missing. It's blamed on persons described in unflattering terms from the Blacktown side of Windsor Rd. I never knew it but Windsor Rd is more than a highway. It's a social divide apparently and the metro is unlucky enough to terminate on the Dark Side of the road! The police will no doubt have some rich pickings available there.

The other beneficiaries are apparently the local councils who all this time, it seems, have actually not appreciated the metro for the benefits it brings to their communities, but In fact have had dollar signs in their eyes waiting for the time when they could send their rangers out in swarms to vigorously fine any parking transgressors, both inside the car parks and on the wide, empty roads (with senseless parking restrictions) leading up to the stations. So one hand, the state, giveth us the metro and the other hand, the councils, taketh it away by throttling the locals' ability to get to it. If it was Newtown or Bondi I can understand fanatical enforcement of parking restrictions, but out in open countryside? Between this and the buses - frustrating.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby BeauGiles » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:19 pm

tonyp wrote:The other beneficiaries are apparently the local councils who all this time, it seems, have actually not appreciated the metro for the benefits it brings to their communities, but In fact have had dollar signs in their eyes waiting for the time when they could send their rangers out in swarms to vigorously fine any parking transgressors, both inside the car parks and on the wide, empty roads (with senseless parking restrictions) leading up to the station. So one hand, the state, giveth us the metro and the other hand, the councils, taketh it away by throttling the locals' ability to get to it. If it was Newtown or Bondi I can understand fanatical enforcement of parking restrictions, but out in open countryside? Between this and the buses - frustrating.


If the carpark is transport owned, local council rangers can't touch it. Transport Officers can sort Sydney Trains carparks, I'm presuming they have the same power at Metro carparks. As do the police.

But it's not council's barrel to shoot fish in - if they're on the street outside the carpark, that's another story.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:50 pm

As the information comes from a community page, they're possibly not across the fine differentiation between who is fining them. Inside the car parks it's about not parking in designated spaces which is fair enough. Outside, in those isolated locations it's another matter except obviously where there's a housing estate and local residents' parking amenity is being protected. I'm not sure who owns the Tallawong car parks as they're in a development area outside the station precinct. If there were better bus connections, this source of angst could be significantly reduced.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby iamthouth » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:30 pm

BeauGiles wrote:
tonyp wrote:The other beneficiaries are apparently the local councils who all this time, it seems, have actually not appreciated the metro for the benefits it brings to their communities, but In fact have had dollar signs in their eyes waiting for the time when they could send their rangers out in swarms to vigorously fine any parking transgressors, both inside the car parks and on the wide, empty roads (with senseless parking restrictions) leading up to the station. So one hand, the state, giveth us the metro and the other hand, the councils, taketh it away by throttling the locals' ability to get to it. If it was Newtown or Bondi I can understand fanatical enforcement of parking restrictions, but out in open countryside? Between this and the buses - frustrating.


If the carpark is transport owned, local council rangers can't touch it. Transport Officers can sort Sydney Trains carparks, I'm presuming they have the same power at Metro carparks. As do the police.

But it's not council's barrel to shoot fish in - if they're on the street outside the carpark, that's another story.


The metro car parks are enforced by local council rangers through an agreement between TfNSW and the three respective councils.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Swift » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:49 pm

tonyp wrote:A couple of emerging developments from the car parks, courtesy of the Hills metro users Facebook page which is good for a laugh sometimes, but not for the owners of the couple of specced-up cars photographed parked at Tallawong and up on bricks with their wheels missing. It's blamed on persons described in unflattering terms from the Blacktown side of Windsor Rd.

Have you got a link or two related to this story? Search engines only found one article with a pay wall. No facebook page.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:38 am

Swift wrote: Have you got a link or two related to this story? Search engines only found one article with a pay wall. No facebook page.

The Facebook group is called Hills District Metro Rail Community.

Motorist ‘devastated’ after wheels stolen from car
A Sydney Metro user has been left shocked and outraged after he arrived back at a station to discover someone had stolen his wheels. See which station is a hotspot in our exclusive story.
Jake McCallum, Urban Affairs Reporter, Hills Shire Times

September 3, 2019 1:11am
A Sydney metro user has discovered his wheels had been stolen from his car.

A Sydney Metro Northwest commuter was shocked to discover the wheels of his ute had been stolen after parking at a station last week.

Tristan Smith and his colleague Shane Hogan parked at the Tallawong Metro station at 5am on Thursday last week — returning at approximately 4pm to discover all four of his four-wheel-drive wheels had been stolen from his Isuzu DMax in broad daylight.

“It has been an absolute nightmare,” Mr Smith told the Rouse Hill Times.

“I was devastated, I couldn't believe it had happened to me, because that morning we read a post on social media about wheels being stolen from cars at Tallawong Station.

“I have been warning other people about the risk of parking at the metro, it could happen to anyone.”

Mr Smith said he reported the incident to Sydney Metro and NSW Police.

Last week’s theft is not the first time this has happened.
“This isn’t the first time this has happened, I heard from other people at the station on Thursday night who were sharing their own stories.”

Mr Smith’s colleague, Shane Hogan, posted a photo of the incident to Facebook, encouraging others to be wary of parking at the station.

“Tristan only moved into the area three weeks ago, so he hasn’t used the Metro very much so this was a rude introduction,” he said.

“Police said the crime rate has increased due to the metro, they told us they will start to regularly monitor the area.”

A NSW Police spokesman said Riverstone Police have previously investigated a similar incident when the Metro opened.

“Police are investigating the incident and increasing patrols in the area,” he said.

“If anyone has information in regards to the matter, contact the assistance line on 131444.”


Looking a little further afield, the lack of P+R parking spaces and the offical learning curve is an ongoing theme. Leppington line has the same issues and the number of spaces provided is small compared to NWRL - Leppington was provded with only 850, Edmonson Park only 400. There was much political lobbying and the government is now to boost both up over 1,000 each. Scanning through the figures for the similar Perth north-south line, the carpark capacities range from the high hundreds to the low thousands with a couple of big ones at around 2,000 spaces. Of course in any case, improved bus services would take some pressure off the need for carparking, but what seems to be overlooked in Sydney is that the catchment for outer carparks in particular is far wider than the immediate suburb. I would imagine that this would apply to Leppington and certainly to Tallawong. At least at Tallawong there is considerable scope for expanding the capacity of the carparking, but this would be mainly vertically which carries some cost.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
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