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Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ar157 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:29 pm

matthewg wrote:The MTR person doing the signs 'knows' that in English we don't use 24hr time so set up the screen appropriately.

Not sure what you mean by this? In Cantonese and Standard Chinese, time is conveyed through the 12 hour system, just as it is in English. For what it's worth, MTR also uses 24 hour time on its PIDS.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Linto63 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:14 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Discussion closed - any more of this will be deleted - this is totally off subject.

Back to NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing please.
Thought it had been agreed that all of this endless double deck vs single deck and apples vs oranges comparisons was off topic?

But if we must go through the groundhog day process for the 8,000th time, I don't think anybody doubts that a single deck train with a superior power to weight ratio will accelerate / decelerate quicker and load / unload quicker than a double deck and thus achieve a higher average speed. But speed isn't the only factor. Comparing journey times on the Gold Coast and Mandurah lines that were built in the last 25 years with Sydney Trains lines built over 100 years ago is an apples and oranges comparison. There are differences on many fronts.

There seems to be a theory that the Metro North West service has been successful because it is a rapid transit. It has been successful, because there has long been a need for it, should have been built when the north-west was opened up for housing 20+ years ago. If it were operated as a heavy rail line by double decks, it would be just as successful, the couple of extra minutes in journey time wouldn't make or break it.

We can all make assumptions as to how the '20% drop in crowding' has been arrived at, but really without anything reliable on which to base, none of the reasoning given is anything but hearsay.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:31 pm

Come on, it's a good deal more than "a couple of extra minutes" journey time. It's either a lot of extra minutes or a lot of missed stops, or a combination of both. If it were run by double deck trains it would be a lot slower and/or it would miss a lot of stops, and thus its power to draw patronage from private motor cars would be reduced, both on journey time and convenience grounds (apart from the fact that the lower NSL would collapse with more trains coming in from the NW). I think this thread is better informed with some hard analysis, particularly when some updated Opal data comes in.

The government statement about the T1 directly suggests that the metro is stealing patronage from it, obviously a zero gain for overall PT patronage but it may help free up capacity on T1, which is one of the spin-off benefits for the suburban system from the metro. It will help the suburban system to work better. If there is a patronage transfer from the Richmond line, it's a reasonable assumption that this is patronage that is heading for the Sydney CBD, maybe at most North Sydney. There would be very few who would travel all the way from Richmond line through to Chatswood by train.

Here are the detailed comparative journey times (including this time the two-minute wait at Epping, which I hope would be abolished as unnecessary in future). This may or may not help deduce why commuters might drift across from the Richmond line to the metro at present. After 2024 the time difference between the two services to the Sydney CBD will widen. The metro will have 17 stops between Tallawong and Central. The Richmond service has 12 stops between Riverstone and Central, though I wish they'd take the opportunity presented by the opening of the metro to add a stop at Burwood.

Tallawong-Chatswood: 37 mins
Riverstone-Chatswood: 82 mins

Tallawong-North Sydney (present): 50 mins
Tallawong-North Sydney (projected 2024): 43 mins
Riverstone-North Sydney: 71 mins

Tallawong-Wynyard (present): 56 mins
Tallawong-Martin Place (projected 2024): 48 mins
Riverstone-Wynyard: 64 mins

Tallawong-Town Hall (present): 60 mins
Tallawong-Pitt St (projected 2024): 50 mins
Riverstone-Town Hall: 61 mins

Tallawong-Central (present - interchange Chatswood): 63 mins
Tallawong-Central (present - interchange ICE Epping): 52 mins
Tallawong-Central (projected 2024): 52 mins
Riverstone-Central: 58 mins
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:45 pm

All depends on which stations
Eg. Cherrybrook will have reduced the catchment area of Beecroft and Pennant Hills for example..
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Rails » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:56 pm

For T1, I think that the Metro may have been grabbing not only passengers from the Richmond line but also some people who travel to Seven Hills and perhaps Blacktown to hop a train. Depending on where they are traveling to of course. I cant imagine many CBD bound passengers will be switching but perhaps if you are bound for other employment nodes further north. Even if its a bit further to travel for some, it would beat the squeeze that is T1.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:01 pm

moa999 wrote:All depends on which stations
Eg. Cherrybrook will have reduced the catchment area of Beecroft and Pennant Hills for example..

Tallawong with its carpark would be a magnet for a whole lot of Richmond line commuters from between Vineyard and Box Hill down to Schofields and The Ponds. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to increase the capacity of the carpark in the future. I think the catchments of the two lines would overlap rather than having a hard boundary.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Linto63 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:20 pm

tonyp wrote:Come on, it's a good deal more than "a couple of extra minutes" journey time.
Ok, so we can do a like-for-like comparison. Journey planner indicates the Metro will take 12-13 minutes from Chatswood to Epping, this clip shows a T1 service covered the same section in just under 14, (set off to stop), so assuming this clip hasn't been edited, the difference would appear to be 1-2 minutes. As this represents about 1/3 of the total length of the line, if we triple that to 3-6 minutes to represent the full length and add a few minutes for good measure, we are at maybe 10.

Sure there are some who would park the car if the journey was 30 minutes, but not if 40. But then for others, the lesser chance of obtaining a seat may be a deal breaker. Time is everything to some, but not everyone.

The legacy Richmond line has far more to contend with, it is single track in parts, it has to interact with other T1, T5, T9 and Intercity services, and it is operating on a 19th century alignment.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:35 pm

Rail line closures to force 100,000 commuters a day to catch buses



Sections of two rail lines in Sydney's south west will be shut over the Christmas holidays to allow for construction of a metro rail line, forcing up to 100,000 commuters a day to catch replacement buses.

Transport authorities plan to put on more than 200 buses a day to ferry about 100,000 people during the first four days of the closure of the Bankstown line between Campsie and Sydenham, and the Illawarra line from Hurstville to Central Station, from December 24 to 28.

Up to 90 buses a day will then operate for the rest of the closure of the Bankstown line until January 5, transporting as many as 28,000 passengers each day.
Commuters will be forced to catch buses during closures of the Bankstown line.

Commuters will be forced to catch buses during closures of the Bankstown line.Credit:Peter Rae

The project for the second stage of the multibillion-dollar metro rail line involves converting a 13.5-kilometre stretch of the Bankstown line.
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While yet to be finalised, the closure of the Bankstown line is expected to be repeated each Christmas for the next five years. Other work to convert the line is likely to take place during weekends when Sydney Trains carry out maintenance.

Transport for NSW coordinator general Marg Prendergast said replacement buses would be running multiple routes to lessen the disruption. "We are really going to break up routes because we don't want to overload sites like Campsie station," she said.

Ms Prendergast said patronage declined over the Christmas holidays by about 35 per cent, which was why authorities wanted to take advantage of the period to begin works.
The work on the metro line at Sydenham station will also impact the Illawarra line for four days over Christmas.

The work on the metro line at Sydenham station will also impact the Illawarra line for four days over Christmas.Credit:Kate Geraghty

"It’s important that we balance the need to convert the T3 Bankstown Line as quickly as possible, with getting people where they need to go," she said. "We are trying to minimise the impact. We do envisage that the heavy rail infrastructure works will be done in Christmas periods."

Last year the state government ditched plans for closures of the line for six weeks a year for five years, following community concern about the disruption.
Related Article
NSW government bows to pressure over length of Bankstown rail closures
Public transport
NSW government bows to pressure over length of Bankstown rail closures

Ms Prendergast said the length of a shutdown of the Bankstown line towards the end of the construction phase in late 2023, which was originally planned for up to six months, was yet to be finalised.

The conversion of the Bankstown rail corridor is part of the second stage of the $20 billion metro train line from Sydney's north west to Chatswood, the CBD, and on to Bankstown. Upgrades to 11 stations between Sydenham and Bankstown will each take about two years.[/quote]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rail-line-closures-to-force-100-000-commuters-a-day-to-catch-buses-20190718-p528eg.html
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ed24 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:34 pm

tonyp wrote:
moa999 wrote:All depends on which stations
Eg. Cherrybrook will have reduced the catchment area of Beecroft and Pennant Hills for example..

Tallawong with its carpark would be a magnet for a whole lot of Richmond line commuters from between Vineyard and Box Hill down to Schofields and The Ponds. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to increase the capacity of the carpark in the future. I think the catchments of the two lines would overlap rather than having a hard boundary.

Which is why hopefully there isn't too much of a delay of extending from Tallawong to Schofields to improve the connection options.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:21 pm

Linto63 wrote:Ok, so we can do a like-for-like comparison. Journey planner indicates the Metro will take 12-13 minutes from Chatswood to Epping, this clip shows a T1 service covered the same section in just under 14, (set off to stop), so assuming this clip hasn't been edited, the difference would appear to be 1-2 minutes. As this represents about 1/3 of the total length of the line, if we triple that to 3-6 minutes to represent the full length and add a few minutes for good measure, we are at maybe 10.

Sure there are some who would park the car if the journey was 30 minutes, but not if 40. But then for others, the lesser chance of obtaining a seat may be a deal breaker. Time is everything to some, but not everyone.

The legacy Richmond line has far more to contend with, it is single track in parts, it has to interact with other T1, T5, T9 and Intercity services, and it is operating on a 19th century alignment.

I've used journey planner, timetables, everything to plot entire lines! I happen to have an old ECRL timetable. The Line took 17 minutes to traverse. The metro does it in 13. There is no significant difference in time between the three intermediate stations because they are so close together. The saving is in the longer sections at the Chatswood and Epping ends. The suburbans took 8-9 minutes to traverse the North Ryde-Chatswood section (uphill/downhill variation) and 4-5 minutes at MU-Epping end (same reason for the variation). The gradient-eating metro takes a consistent 6 minutes at the Chatswood end and 3 minutes at the Epping end.

Obviously the metro makes smaller time gains on shorter runs with closer station spacings but the further you go out, the bigger the time difference becomes. By the time you get to the outer suburbs/long distances the metro has a yawning lead. The only way the suburbans can come close to it is by missing stops. The more they stop, the worse they get. This is why I still very much believe in them as distance expresses and they certainly have a role in that for the outer and interurban areas. But if you want the convenience of serving more places along a line by stopping, and without sacrificing journey time as a result, then metro is the best technology - regardless of distance.

The Richmond line has an excellent track profile and is double track almost to Riverstone, the reference point in this comparison. No services used in the comparison are slowed down by single track.

As for seating, reports from users writing on other forums indicate that there is quite a bit of passenger churn along the line, particularly at Epping. If you don't get a seat straight away, it's not too long before you get one. It seems that predictions of standing journeys along the entire line are somewhat unwarranted. I have been scanning feedback about the service on the internet generally and I haven't seen one single comment about the seating since it opened, neither its arrangement nor the amount of it. I get the impression that it's not an issue to most people.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:12 pm

tonyp wrote: I have been scanning feedback about the service on the internet generally and I haven't seen one single comment about the seating since it opened, neither its arrangement nor the amount of it. I get the impression that it's not an issue to most people.


Visual observations over the past few days of using the Epping - Chatswood section: seats aplenty due to the high frequency of services, yet a large number of people still just decide to stand. :lol: These days, too troublesome to even sit down! :p

Obviously during the peaks almost every train would be quite well loaded.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Linto63 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:22 am

tonyp wrote:Obviously the metro makes smaller time gains on shorter runs with closer station spacings but the further you go out, the bigger the time difference becomes.
Think you will find it is the other way round, the metro with its superior acceleration and deceleration will gain more time when stations have closer spacings, but the longer the gaps the more time both are cruising at line speed, hence the less of an advantage the metro train has.
swtt wrote:Visual observations over the past few days of using the Epping - Chatswood section: seats aplenty due to the high frequency of services, yet a large number of people still just decide to stand. These days, too troublesome to even sit down!
Plenty of people may have or are just about to spend 8 hours sitting on their tails, hence elect to spend a bit of time on their feet.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Daniel » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:00 am

Remember all that doom and gloom on here about the Metro coming?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Swift » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:17 am

Linto63 wrote:
swtt wrote:Visual observations over the past few days of using the Epping - Chatswood section: seats aplenty due to the high frequency of services, yet a large number of people still just decide to stand. These days, too troublesome to even sit down!
Plenty of people may have or are just about to spend 8 hours sitting on their tails, hence elect to spend a bit of time on their feet.

It sounds like bum rests are the go for any additional cars ordered for future capacity increases. Maybe even replacing some seats with them for better coping with future crush loads. These trains well inevitably full up more over time and it's best to heed any apparent passenger behaviour pattern toward being prepared to stand up during their journey to make the most efficient space possible.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:04 am

Daniel wrote:Remember all that doom and gloom on here about the Metro coming?

For some commentators, the doom and gloom continues when it's already here! It's always fun when the customers defy what the theories say shouldn't happen.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:31 am

swtt wrote:
tonyp wrote: I have been scanning feedback about the service on the internet generally and I haven't seen one single comment about the seating since it opened, neither its arrangement nor the amount of it. I get the impression that it's not an issue to most people.


Visual observations over the past few days of using the Epping - Chatswood section: seats aplenty due to the high frequency of services, yet a large number of people still just decide to stand. :lol: These days, too troublesome to even sit down! :p

Obviously during the peaks almost every train would be quite well loaded.


I've experienced this is Japan..lots of people standing but seats available. I was worried I was breaching some sort of travelling etiquette by using an empty seat.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:43 am

Linto63 wrote:Think you will find it is the other way round, the metro with its superior acceleration and deceleration will gain more time when stations have closer spacings, but the longer the gaps the more time both are cruising at line speed, hence the less of an advantage the metro train has.

I suspect that you haven't even looked at the figures I've been posting.

swtt wrote:
Obviously during the peaks almost every train would be quite well loaded.

Photo posted by another on Skyscraper City recently in evening peak in North Ryde section. Single deckers deal with standees much more comfortably than double deckers.

Image
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost ... count=5303
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Linto63 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:22 pm

tonyp wrote:I suspect that you haven't even looked at the figures I've been posting.
You have way too much form when it comes to manipulating figures on this thread and others, for me to place any faith in your numbers. But the fact remains that a metro train with superior acceleration and deceleration will best be able to exploit this over sections with frequent stops. Assuming the same top speed, this advantage will be diminished over sections with less frequent stops.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Swift » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:54 pm

tonyp wrote:Photo posted by another on Skyscraper City recently in evening peak in North Ryde section. Single deckers deal with standees much more comfortably than double

Image
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost ... count=5303

This picture shows the possible benefits of perimeter bum rests which will broaden the standing space in the aisle, fitting more people. In this setting, seats all along the train both sides appears to be an unnecessary waste of valuable space.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:20 pm

Linto63 wrote:You have way too much form when it comes to manipulating figures on this thread and others, for me to place any faith in your numbers. But the fact remains that a metro train with superior acceleration and deceleration will best be able to exploit this over sections with frequent stops. Assuming the same top speed, this advantage will be diminished over sections with less frequent stops.

That's based on your assumption that I have "form" with manipulating figures. Perhaps you should take that up with the timetabling people at TfNSW and the interstate agencies because all I've done is reproduce typical timetabling of services from systems around Australia in comparable operating environments (typically straight to straightish track without constraints like single track where possible).

You can check the timetables (or in the case of the metro, TfNSW projections) for these:

13 km segment:

Sydney Metro:
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 21 minutes (projected time) (38 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 25 minutes (32 km/h)

In this case Sydney Metro is only 4 mins faster than Sydney Trains over the same section.

33 km segment (E=skipping stops train; ICE=intercity express train):

Sydney Metro:
Rouse Hill-Chatswood: 10 stops, 33 mins (60 km/h)
(after subtracting 2 minute stop at Epping)

Sydney Suburban:
Blacktown-Redfern: E 7 stops, 41 mins; E 13 stops, 47 mins; ICE 1 stop, 32 mins (48, 42, 61 km/h)
Cronulla-Redfern: E 8 stops, 43 mins (46 km/h)
Central-Macquarie Fields via East Hills: E 7 stops, 40 mins (49 km/h)


Difficult to find a Sydney Trains equivalent here that has 10 stops over 33 km because at this distance Sydney Trains are semi-expressing and missing stops which should give them an unfair advantage. Nevertheless the metro is well and truly holding its own at something around 10 minutes faster for an equivalent number of stops. I've even dropped an interurban into it to show that it can match the metro only by having just one stop! Your proposition is starting to disintegrate.

47 km segment (E=skipping stops train; ICE=intercity express train):

Sydney Metro:
Tallawong-Central: 17 stops, 50 mins (56 km/h)
(projected time after subtracting 2 minute stop at Epping)

Sydney Suburban:
Riverstone-Redfern: E 11 stops, 55 mins (51 km/h)
(single track between Riverstone and Schofields but no trains are crossing here to show things down)
St Marys-Redfern: E 9 stops, 50 mins (55 km/h)
Macarthur-Central: E 15 stops, 60 mins (47 km/h)
(after subtracting 2 minute stop at Glenfield)


It's even more difficult here to find a Sydney Trains equivalent because at this distance Sydney Trains are fully into expressing to the extent of starting to miss significant centres like Westmead and Burwood. The St Marys train serves little more than half the stops that the metro does. The Macarthur train comes close but it gets some good distance sprints unlike the metro which has to stop at more or less evenly-spaced stations all along the line. So balancing all these examples out, it's clear that the metro is somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes faster over 47 kms, at which point your theory collapes in a ruined heap.

I keep telling you and Transtopic that you have to go and look at Perth to understand how this all-stops rapid transit thing works, not only over short distances but over long distances too.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Linto63 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:51 pm

tonyp wrote:That's based on your assumption that I have "form" with manipulating figures. Perhaps you should take that up with the timetabling people at TfNSW and the interstate agencies because all I've done is reproduce typical timetabling of services from systems around Australia in comparable operating environments (typically straight to straightish track without constraints like single track where possible).
Deliberately or otherwise, you do often get it wrong though. You told us on the 24th June on this thread that average speeds on the Illawarra line do not rise either side of the Waterfall - Thirroul section, when an analysis of timetables and YouTube clips, clearly show they do; from 60km/h to 80-90km/h.
tonyp wrote:I keep telling you and Transtopic that you have to go and look at Perth to understand how this all-stops rapid transit thing works, not only over short distances but over long distances too.
I have been to Perth probably a dozen times in the last 20 years and have travelled on the public transport network on most occasions. So while I wouldn't classify myself as an expert, I have done enough to have something on which to form an opinion. I won't regurgitate what I have previously stated on the Perth vs other cities thread, suffice to say Sydney and Perth are different in many regards.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:13 pm

The point in that average speed discussion relating to the south coast line was that there was little difference in the average speeds in the whole sections of line Nowra-Thirroul, Thirroul-Waterfall, Waterfall-Sydney. Then we had another discussion about the higher average speed in the short sections Waterfall-Heathcote (-Sutherland) and Thirroul-Wollongong. Of course they have a higher average speed in those sections but that's then brought down over a longer distance.

There's nothing so different about Perth that precludes comparison of journey times over sections beyond junctions etc. That's what I've tried to do where possible in all the intercity comparisons. It's not as though Sydney is still running on tracks and signalling installed in the 19th century. It has been modernized since then. In Perth three of the lines were built in the 19th century and, while modernized with new signaling etc, haven't been realigned as far as I can see. All trains are also considerably slowed down while negotiating central Perth. In terms of infrastructure, if you stay clear of the tangled bits in the Sydney system, your're just comparing a train running on a straightish railway line with modern track and signalling on one system with the same on another system.

Once again I invite you to check all the timetables yourself. I have a book of NSW railway distances but most of the railway station entries in Wikipedia have accurate distances. I've done this sort of analysis for trams as part of a project - just taking the skills acquired across to trains and frankly the methods are pretty basic that just about anybody can do with a pocket calculator. I may make a mistake sometimes because of eyesight etc but I usually pick it up on later checks. But I am reassured to know that should I miss something, you will pounce on it for me. ;)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:32 pm

Again we are getting totaly off topic - please back to Metro North West and Harbour Crossing
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:06 pm

Further closedown on 3rd and 4th August. https://transportnsw.info/alerts/details#/6037109
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:58 am

An interesting video recently posted. It includes one of those GPS speedometers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i41_qkVYpO4

It indicates that the train takes 40 seconds to accelerate to 100 km/h and the dwell time is a consistent 30 seconds.
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