• Advertisement

NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:33 am

kypros1992 wrote:Probably a good time to bring up some past limited stop services pre-ECRL

http://www.homer.com.au/webdoc/sra/City ... /index.htm

Some unique stopping patterns such as Epping then Meadowbank then direct to Strathfield etc.


Those were the days :)

Nothing beats that 9:08 am train (Strathfield departure time) which then runs West Ryde, Eastwood, Epping and then Hornsby! :P
User avatar
swtt
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:47 am

OK here is a little more about this 30/9 TT.

SMNW = Sydney Metro North West.

  • AM and PM peak Central Coast services no longer stopping at Eastwood or Burwood, but selected ones will call at Redfern.
  • AM and PM peak Syd Term <-> Hornsby via Strathfield services will call at Burwood, but not at Redfern.
  • In the off peak/weekends, Epping is probably going to be the biggest hit between now and the SMNW opening - 10 trains per hour down to 6.
  • Eastwood in fact gains two trains per hour in the PM peak as some Central Coast services don't stop there, but the new Hornsby <-> Syd Term trains will (every 15 min).
  • Trains ex Central Coast running via the Shore line will stop at more stations between Gosford and Berowra (as hypothesised in another response above), which then allows all services via Strathfield to run fast between Gosford/Hornsby.
  • Currently there are 19 trains/hr in the highest peak on the North Shore Line between Central and Chatswood. This will temporarily decrease to 18 trains/hr from 30/9, and increase back up to 20 trains/hr in April 2019 prior to the SMNW opening.
  • A new TT is expected in April 2019 prior to the SMNW opening - Shore line off peak will be a consistent 10 min to match metro frequency to provide "one-train-for-one-train" cross platform interchange. Peak will be 20 trains/hr - maximum capacity.
User avatar
swtt
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby kypros1992 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:09 am

there going metro which cements the position that every rail project in Sydney will be rapid transit from here on

https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/sy ... ey-airport
kypros1992
 
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:14 am
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:12 am

kypros1992 wrote:there going metro which cements the position that every rail project in Sydney will be rapid transit from here on

https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/sy ... ey-airport
And perhaps so it should be. If you're going to build something brand spanking new, may as well make it a clean start.

Sent from my Huawei Mate 9 using Tapatalk
User avatar
swtt
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby stupid_girl » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:34 pm

swtt wrote:OK here is a little more about this 30/9 TT.

SMNW = Sydney Metro North West.

  • AM and PM peak Central Coast services no longer stopping at Eastwood or Burwood, but selected ones will call at Redfern.
  • AM and PM peak Syd Term <-> Hornsby via Strathfield services will call at Burwood, but not at Redfern.
  • In the off peak/weekends, Epping is probably going to be the biggest hit between now and the SMNW opening - 10 trains per hour down to 6.
  • Eastwood in fact gains two trains per hour in the PM peak as some Central Coast services don't stop there, but the new Hornsby <-> Syd Term trains will (every 15 min).
  • Trains ex Central Coast running via the Shore line will stop at more stations between Gosford and Berowra (as hypothesised in another response above), which then allows all services via Strathfield to run fast between Gosford/Hornsby.
  • Currently there are 19 trains/hr in the highest peak on the North Shore Line between Central and Chatswood. This will temporarily decrease to 18 trains/hr from 30/9, and increase back up to 20 trains/hr in April 2019 prior to the SMNW opening.
  • A new TT is expected in April 2019 prior to the SMNW opening - Shore line off peak will be a consistent 10 min to match metro frequency to provide "one-train-for-one-train" cross platform interchange. Peak will be 20 trains/hr - maximum capacity.

Do you mean off peak frequency at Chatswood will drop from current 8tph to 6tph (10 min) in April 2019?
stupid_girl
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:25 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:07 pm

stupid_girl wrote:
swtt wrote:OK here is a little more about this 30/9 TT.

SMNW = Sydney Metro North West.

  • A new TT is expected in April 2019 prior to the SMNW opening - Shore line off peak will be a consistent 10 min to match metro frequency to provide "one-train-for-one-train" cross platform interchange. Peak will be 20 trains/hr - maximum capacity.

Do you mean off peak frequency at Chatswood will drop from current 8tph to 6tph (10 min) in April 2019?



Badly worded sentence on my part. Try again:

  • 30/9/2018 TT will see Chatswood gain two services per hour, as North Sydney terminators are sent limited stops to Lindfield (services that would've run via ECRL sent to Gordon instead. There will be a maximum of a 10 minute wait, which means at least, a one-train-for-one-train, if not better, cross platform interchange.
User avatar
swtt
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:03 pm

The link in the Eastern Suburbs thread that enables you to use the trip planner for October 2 has the September 30 changes (obviously). Note the ECRL is a dashed line.

Image

Image

Image
mandonov
 
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:18 pm

Try https://transportnsw.info/trip#/?wSpeed ... 1810021010 from Epping to Chatswood on 2 October 2018 where it suggests SL1
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 20238
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 994 times
Been thanked: 1086 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:35 pm

swtt wrote:OK here is a little more about this 30/9 TT.
  • Trains ex Central Coast running via the Shore line will stop at more stations between Gosford and Berowra (as hypothesised in another response above), which then allows all services via Strathfield to run fast between Gosford/Hornsby.

Travel time from Gosford to North Sydney increases from 73 minutes to 80 minutes.

Eastwood loses all CCN trains. Asquith loses all peak CCN trains. Berowra loses all peak CCN via Strathfield. Despite the reduced stops, travel times between Hornsby and Central on CCN services are the same or longer.

The flyer remains in the timetable but is no faster between Central and Gosford despite skipping Epping and Hornsby.
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Frodo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:17 pm

From what I've seen so far, running times have increased yet again, like the trains weren't slow enough already. Examples:

Currently: 7.02am T1 Berowra to Central stops all to Gordon, Chatswood, all to Central (19 intermediate stops), arriving at 8.04am (62 minutes)
New timetable: 7.04am, stops all to Wahroonga, Turramurra, Gordon, Chatswood, all to Central (17 intermediate stops), yet it is due to arrive at Central at 8.08am (64 min)
Interestingly, the peak hour trains that skips 5 stops takes the same time as the trains after the morning peak (all stops services).

Currently: 9.05am CCN Hornsby to Central 9.42pm (37 min, 4 intermediate stops)
New timetable: 9.04am ex-Hornsby, arrives Central 9.44am (40 min, 3 intermediate stops - Hornsby to Epping is timetabled to take 15 min which is only 1 minute quicker than an all stops service)

As mentioned above, Eastwood loses all CCN services. Redfern loses most of its PM peak CCN services (only the 5.04pm, 5.34pm, and 6.04pm ex-Central stopping at Redfern). Asquith retains its afternoon peak CCN via Shore services despite losing the AM peak CCN via Shore services (also keeps the current 8.32am CCN via Strathfield service).

The pattern in T1 morning peak is:
1. Berowra, all to Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Turramurra, Gordon, Chatswood, all to Central
2. Hornsby, then Warrawee, then all to Central
3. CCN via Shore: Hornsby, Gordon, Chatswood, all to Central
4. ex-Gordon, then all to Central
3. Hornsby, all to Gordon, Chatswood, all to Central

PM peak:
Berowra services are weird, will check out the other stopping patterns later
4.17pm, 4.47pm Central to Berowra is all to Chatswood, Gordon, all to Berowra
5.17pm, 5.47pm Central to Berowra is all to Chatswood, Lindfield, Gordon, Turramurra, Waitara, Hornsby, all to Berowra
6.17pm, 6.47pm Central to Berowra is all to North Sydney, St Leonards, Chatswood, Gordon, all to Berowra

I'll play around with trip planner a bit more at work on Monday but that's all I've got for now.
Frodo
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:27 pm

Using the Departures feature, it's interesting to see the pattern of trains from Epping; T1 Slow-CCN-T1 Fast and repeat with a spacing of 2-9-4 minutes at Epping.

Good consistency with CCN services too. 4 Central via Strathfield and 4 Blacktown via Gordon; every via Strathfield is express Gosford-Woy Woy-Hornsby-Epping-Strathfield with the slow train also stopping at Redfern; every Gosford via Shore is all stops Gosford to Woy Woy then Berowra, while the Wyong via Shore are all stops to Gosford-Woy Woy- all stops to Berowra.

Also Frodo, Eastwood may be losing the CCN services but it breaks even by gaining the upper Northern Line services.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Frodo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:46 pm

mandonov wrote:Also Frodo, Eastwood may be losing the CCN services but it breaks even by gaining the upper Northern Line services.


Yes, not too bad for Eastwood unless you're one of those who catch the late night/early morning CCN trains (12.47am, 1.47am, 3.45am, 4.45am services) :D

Also forgot to mention above, a couple of new T1 Berowra to the city services during the morning peak departing Berowra at 7.19am and 7.48am which gives Mt Colah and Mt Kuringgai trains every 15 minutes from 7-8am. No additional PM peak services though.
Frodo
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:50 pm

Some of the new stopping patterns and journey times on the T1 North Shore don't make much sense.

Gordon to Chatswood is timetabled as 9 minutes with no stops, and 9 minutes with 3 stops.

Prior to 8am the journey times between Hornsby and Chatswood are all the same regardless of stopping pattern:

7:29 Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Warrawee, Turramurra, Pymble, Gordon, Killara, Lindfield, Roseville, Chatswood = 23 minutes.
7:33 Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Turramurra, Gordon, Chatswood = 23 minutes.
7:43 Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Warrawee, Turramurra, Pymble, Gordon, Chatswood = 23 minutes.

Then after 8am, 4 stops takes 22 minutes, while 7 stops takes 21 minutes:

8:02 Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Turramurra, Gordon, Chatswood = 22 minutes.
8:06 Hornsby, Warrawee, Turramurra, Pymble, Gordon, Killara, Lindfield, Roseville, Chatswood = 21 minutes.
8:13 Hornsby, Waitara, Wahroonga, Warrawee, Turramurra, Pymble, Gordon, Chatswood = 23 minutes.


And a similarly bizarre schedule in the PM peak.
Chatswood, Gordon, Hornsby = 22 minutes.
Chatswood, Roseville, Lindfield, Killara, Gordon, Turramurra, Waitara, Hornsby = 21 minutes.
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:17 am

CCN via Gordon won't be long for this world once the North Shore Line requires 20tph next year. Or if it's still around the time difference will be negligible being stuck behind all stoppers from Hornsby onwards.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:24 am

mandonov wrote:CCN via Gordon won't be long for this world once the North Shore Line requires 20tph next year. Or if it's still around the time difference will be negligible being stuck behind all stoppers from Hornsby onwards.

It's already the case in the October 2018 timetable. CCN via Shore is timetabled to take longer than the T1 service that makes more stops.

Wynyard to Hornsby, 8 stops on CCN run - 42 minutes. (35 mins in current timetable and 33 mins prior to 2013)
Wynyard to Hornsby, 13 stops on T1 run - 41 minutes. (40 mins in current timetable)
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:50 pm

Frodo wrote:From what I've seen so far, running times have increased yet again, like the trains weren't slow enough already.

And not limited to the North Shore Line. Many BMT and Western Line services will take an additional 1-2 minutes to get to Central after October 2nd.
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:12 pm

FROM 2nd October?
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 20238
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 994 times
Been thanked: 1086 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby stupid_girl » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:32 pm

mandonov wrote:CCN via Gordon won't be long for this world once the North Shore Line requires 20tph next year. Or if it's still around the time difference will be negligible being stuck behind all stoppers from Hornsby onwards.

With this round of change, I think CCN via Gordon will stay much longer.
They don't have much capacity to divert more passengers via Strathfield.
In fact, they are diverting all passengers from the small stations between Gosford and Hornsby to North Shore.
The removal of upper Northern Line services from North Shore would provide capacity to absorb the additional demand.
stupid_girl
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:25 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:28 pm

stupid_girl wrote:With this round of change, I think CCN via Gordon will stay much longer.
They don't have much capacity to divert more passengers via Strathfield.
In fact, they are diverting all passengers from the small stations between Gosford and Hornsby to North Shore.
The removal of upper Northern Line services from North Shore would provide capacity to absorb the additional demand.

I suppose you're right. Post-2024 the benefits of the service may become more clear when A) changing at Chatswood for the metro will get you to the city 10 minutes faster, and B) the North Shore line won't need to be as frequent as it will be next year, so there can be more opportunities for overtaking trains at Gordon or Lindfield.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Engineering » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:49 am

Dedicated web page to the post 30 Sept changes now live

https://transportnsw.info/station-link- ... djustments
Engineering
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:48 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:14 pm

The new PDF timetables have also been loaded onto the site.
eg T1 North Shore: https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 180930.pdf
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:29 pm

stupid_girl wrote:In fact, they are diverting all passengers from the small stations between Gosford and Hornsby to North Shore.

No more direct services to Epping and Strathfield during the morning peak for Point Clare, Tascott, Koolewong, Hawkesbury River, Cowan and Berowra.

That's a big change for people from those stations. Hopefully some comms to people from those stations will start soon.

To reach Epping at 7:45 prior to October 2, someone from Hawkesbury River would catch the 7:09 direct train. On October 2, to reach Epping by 7:45 they will need to leave 29 minutes earlier and catch the 6:40. The 7:14 will take them via the North Shore, and changing at Hornsby would arrive at Epping at 8:01, adding 15 minutes to the previous travel time.


Other changes for CCN:
  • Redfern stop removed from all but 3 peak services in each direction.
  • Eastwood stop removed from all CCN services. Despite making less stops, travel time increases between Hornsby and Central.
  • Southbound trains via Strathfield depart Epping 3 minutes later, at the time they were previously due to depart Eastwood.
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:20 am

Noticed that in the shoulder afternoon weekday peak on the Northern Line, there are several limited stop services between 16:00 and 18:00 in the Up direction, the first starting from Eastwood at 16:15 and the rest from Epping, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Rhodes, Strathfield and terminating at Central, no doubt in readiness for the evening limited stop peak services to Hornsby from Sydney Terminal. These are in addition to the all stops off peak services from Hornsby to the Shore via Strathfield.

A positive benefit of the reinstatement of the previous longstanding operating pattern from Hornsby to Central via Strathfield is that the Northern Districts' communities north and south of Epping will be reconnected. This was one of the drawbacks of the opening of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link in splitting the community apart by no longer having a continuous rail link . It will be particularly beneficial for school students attending Marist College Eastwood and Cheltenham Girls High, who will no longer have to interchange at Epping to travel between the two current sectors of the Northern Line from which many of their students are drawn.

Eastwood really hasn't got much to gain in either the morning or evening peak. It currently has 8tph in the morning peak, including the 2 limited stop services from Epping and 2 CCN Intercity services to Sydney Terminal. The services to Sydney Terminal will be replaced by the diverted 4 limited stop services from Hornsby via Strathfield, so no change other than a slower express service. In the evening peak, there are currently also 8tph, including 4 CCN Intercity services. No CCN Intercity trains skip Eastwood in the evening peak hour, the only one in the afternoon being the 15:45 ex Central. The CCN services will be replaced by the limited stop services from Sydney Terminal to Hornsby via Strathfield. Again, no change other than a slower express service. It will be interesting to see the reaction when Eastwood commuters realise that they will no longer have a faster direct express service to either Central or Hornsby and CCN beyond. Eastwood had more peak hour services prior to the ECRL with 8tph suburban plus CCN Intercity.

Considering that there is no time saving for CCN services in skipping Eastwood, and that includes weekends, then I don't see the logic in adopting this pattern when you consider that, unlike Epping, it provides for convenient cross platform interchange between suburban and intercity services. There's also major redevelopment of the Eastwood Town Centre in the pipeline which will rival Epping's recent development, so it will need more services rather than maintaining the status quo with an inferior service.

The most illogical outcome of this timetable revamp is to redirect Upper Northern Line services from Hornsby via Strathfield to and from Sydney Terminal in peak hours. Previously leaked proposals had suggested that ALL Northern Line services throughout the day would run via the Suburban tracks from Strathfield through the CBD to the North Shore, with some Western Line services running via the Mains terminating at Central instead. IMO, it would have made more sense to intoduce a faster Western Express service from Penrith for some services via the Mains to Sydney Terminal, freeing up capacity on the Suburban tracks for the additional Northern Line services. Western commuters would still retain the option of travelling through the CBD to the North Shore without interchanging. It would be a win win for everyone.

I suspect it's got a lot more to do with the government pandering to the Western Sydney electorates, than introducing a logical operating pattern. They've taken their Northern Sydney electorates in their heartland for granted, although the seat of Ryde could be at risk.
Transtopic
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 115 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:18 am

It's not that bad having ex Hornsby trains going to Sydney Terminal. Next year when SMNW opens there will probably be a stack of people in interchanging for the metro anyway.

Sent from my Huawei Mate 9 using Tapatalk
User avatar
swtt
 
Posts: 4703
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby kypros1992 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:57 am

For a very rough comparison in the peak

Pre-ECRL (2008 timetable)
- All stop services Eastwood - Strathfield then City (15 mins intervals)
- All stop services Horn - Eastwood, then West Ryde, Strathfield then City (20 mins intervals)

Future (2018 timetable)
- All stop services Horn - Eastwood, then West Ryde all to Rhodes, Strathfield then City (15 mins intervals)
- All stop services Epping - Strathfield then City (15 mins intervals)
kypros1992
 
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:14 am
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 90 times

PreviousNext


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Engineering and 9 guests