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NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:38 am

tonyp wrote:Sydney's quick-fix capacity "solution" of the 1960s



How much if that was to avoid running more services?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Myrtone » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm

Remember that Sydney suburban pioneered double decker multiple units and they are spreading to the busiest heavy rail systems where double decker trains can fit. Doesn't that suggest that double decker trains were the right thing?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ed24 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:49 pm

I'm sure they will rely on coaches for inter-airport services, like Paris Orly to CDG.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:45 pm

tonyp wrote:
neilrex wrote:You often see people complaining about the issue of "dedicated luggage storage facilities", usually people who never use public transport anyway. I don't know how superior the metro is supposed to be compared to the double deckers for this.
There's nothing worse than arriving at an airport with a double deck service and wanting to get on the train with your suitcases to find a solid wall of people staring at you when the few available doors open.

Try getting on a Singapore MRT with luggage at Tanah Merah station in the morning peak hour, where you have to interchange from the short Changi Airport branch. I've sometimes had to wait for up to 3 trains before I could get a toehold. Similarly in London, you're scarcely able to get on a Piccadilly Line tube train from Heathrow with airport passengers' luggage cluttering up the aisles. It's not a problem exclusive to double deck trains. The Hong Kong Airport Express is the best I've been on which has dedicated luggage racks either side of each door (2 doors per carriage), although you pay a premium fare, which is worth every cent. It's also far more comfortable, with 2+2 transverse seating, than the basic cattle class metro. I'd gladly accept this style of metro train if it was introduced on the proposed outer suburban metro lines to service Badgerys Creek Airport. Much like Perth tonyp!

However, I still question whether in fact a metro style service is warranted for Badgerys Creek. It's hardly going to demand a frequency of 30tph or even 15tph through low density areas. Even the Hong Kong Airport Express with far greater patronage is only 6tph, one train every 10 minutes. I understand the economics of the metro's lower operating costs, but there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement that Sydney Trains' operating costs could be substantially reduced with Driver Only Operation and ATO. That has to be balanced against the extremely high up front capital cost of constructing completely new rail lines, incompatible with the existing network, when the latter can provide a comparable service by utilising existing infrastructure, at considerably lower cost and within a much shorter timeframe. Of course, they don't want you to know this. There's not a bottomless pit of money available to satisfy an ideological agenda. It's more about politics than economics. I would hope the business case for each new line takes this into account.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby GazzaOak » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:18 am

Even tho sydney need at least 10 metro lines in 10 years.... i think badgery creek is not one of them.... (or maybe metro + express trains)... the express trains could be sydney terminal - glenfield - badgery creek (and H set is used for this service)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:09 am

Transtopic wrote: I'd gladly accept this style of metro train if it was introduced on the proposed outer suburban metro lines to service Badgerys Creek Airport. Much like Perth tonyp!

If Sydney Trains could achieve Perth running times over that otherwise seemingly excellent set of lines between Airport and Leppington, we might start getting somewhere. Then you just need more suitable trains. And it's not an ideological agenda, in terms of effectiveness as mass transit, it's all about capacity and speed.

I've boarded the tube at Heathrow in peak hour with a set of suitcases - great fun (not)! But at least there was a good choice of doors to get in and no restrictions on accessing some free floor-space. As soon as you run into steps inside a public transport vehicle you lose access for a percentage of users and restrict the ability of the load to distribute itself evenly through the vehicle. Limit the number of doors and you worsen this further.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Glen » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:55 pm

tonyp wrote:If Sydney Trains could achieve Perth running times over that otherwise seemingly excellent set of lines between Airport and Leppington, we might start getting somewhere.

Just remember, Sydney trains are deliberately driven slowly because they are deliberately scheduled slowly.

Simple as that.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:15 pm

Glen wrote:Just remember, Sydney trains are deliberately driven slowly because they are deliberately scheduled slowly.

Simple as that.

You need to microchip me with that statement Glen to save you having to say it to me all the time! :lol:

Can I add that the speed boards are also set at lower speeds and have been for a very long time, even on the relatively new East Hills to Glenfield section. This predates the "slowdown".
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:13 pm

tonyp wrote:
Glen wrote:Just remember, Sydney trains are deliberately driven slowly because they are deliberately scheduled slowly.

Simple as that.

You need to microchip me with that statement Glen to save you having to say it to me all the time! :lol:

Can I add that the speed boards are also set at lower speeds and have been for a very long time, even on the relatively new East Hills to Glenfield section. This predates the "slowdown".

Yes indeed. As I commented on another forum, the speed board limits on the East Hills Line express tracks are ridiculously conservative. The maximum posted speed between East Hills and Glenfield is 125km/h and further east it varies between 80-110km/h. A higher more consistent speed limit should be possible over the whole length.

The current journey time for Melbourne XPT and Canberra Explorer services running express from Central to Campbelltown, a distance of 41.4km, is the same at 36 minutes. That's an average speed of around 70km/h. Waratahs, Millenniums and Oscars, with their maximum specified speed of 130km/h, rarely if ever utilised, should be able to achieve the same time.

Looking at it in the context of an express service from Central to Badgerys Creek Airport via the East Hills Line and an extended South West Rail Link, a nominal distance of 50km, that would equate to a journey time of 43 minutes. If the average speed could be increased to just 80km/h, that would equate to a journey time of 37.5 minutes. Allowing for just three possible intermediate stops at Sydenham, Glenfield and the Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis, there's no reason why a 40 minute journey couldn't be achievable.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Glen » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:44 am

No worries Tony, I more say it so that others new to these discussions hear it too.

Yes that's right, there's a culture developed in Sydney over many years that is risk averse in the extreme, or put another way a deep belief that CMA (cover my arse) trumps all common sense in terms of signalling, scheduling, speed boards etc.

Someone once said to me that if the airlines were THAT conservative they'd never lift a plane off the ground.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:36 am

Glen wrote:Yes that's right, there's a culture developed in Sydney over many years that is risk averse in the extreme, or put another way a deep belief that CMA (cover my arse) trumps all common sense in terms of signalling, scheduling, speed boards etc.

Someone once said to me that if the airlines were THAT conservative they'd never lift a plane off the ground.

Tell me about it as I develop depression watching the 30 and 40 km/h speedboards going up along CSELR. Micromanaged to death like everything else in NSW transport.

Yes it would be great to see some of these - with the typical NSW change of speed every couple of hundred metres - along the runways at Sydney Airport:

Image

Your average Airbus skipper would also probably appreciate some of these, like on IWLR:

Image
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:48 pm

Media had access to one of the trains today: https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/3 ... -on-seats/

Image
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:32 am

mandonov wrote:Media had access to one of the trains today: https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/3 ... -on-seats/

They're just Perth S Bahn-style trains with wider inter-carriage connections. What's this "metro" business?

They just need to be specced up more to do this between the wider-spaced stations as it extends into the suburbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFxabrkRG4

This is what we don't get from Snailcorp and the lumbering giants (why aren't we getting this already on the Campbelltown and Penrith expresses for example, the lines are just as straight?). In presenting this metro scheme they need to think a bit more outside the narrow "metro" square.

Also hardly need to go over the trains/seats-per-hour argument again. It's getting rather tiresome seeing ongoing comparisons of the two types on a one to one basis.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:55 am

130 km/h! Horror - Good God Sir, it'll frighten the horses!
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby matthewg » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:46 am

tonyp wrote:
mandonov wrote:Media had access to one of the trains today: https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/3 ... -on-seats/

They're just Perth S Bahn-style trains with wider inter-carriage connections. What's this "metro" business?



It's a straight copy of the trains supplied for the Singapore Circle line.

When I boarded the mockup, it was 'i've been on one of these before'. It looks like all the same fittings and panels, just a different colour scheme.

On the mockup, the driver's console was on the left, on the SG trains it's on the right.

I've watched an SG circle line train being driven on 'coded manual'. Some of the minders for the driver got concerned at my interest in the console!
On the Signore systems, staff drive the trains (semi-manual, ATP is still active) on Sunday mornings in regular service so that they get to practice at train operations.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:15 am

I don’t have a reference right now, but from reading the new plan it seams that it’s official that Metro to Hurstville is dead - replaced with ATO upgrade of T4 in the short term and quadruplication of Hurstville to Sutherland to separate Intercity services and freight from Sydney Trains in the medium term.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 am

matthewg wrote:
It's a straight copy of the trains supplied for the Singapore Circle line.

.



The wiki Metropolis page is at-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Metropolis

Note the interesting photo caption -

Prototype of a Alstom Metropolis train set designed exclusively for Sydney Metro (*begins operation 2019)


Out of Interest the Circle line is third rail and the original stock was in three car sets -

The rolling stock consists of 4 Alstom Metropolis C830 trains running in three-car formation. They are stabled at Kim Chuan depot, the world's largest underground depot when it opened in 2009. 24 new Alstom Metropolis & Shanghai Electric C830C trains were delivered to SMRT from end July 2014. They began operation on 26 June 2015. Currently all 24 C830Cs are in revenue service.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:38 pm

I think Alstom do 'exclusive' exterior vanity panels for many trains and trams, but the underlying vehicle is very similar.

Singapore also tends to have plastic seats, and from memory the windows curve in, whereas Sydney is straight (unsure if it's a smaller train)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:11 pm

tonyp wrote:[There's a massive loss of available space for people with mobility restrictions (luggage, wheelchairs, prams, etc) in a double deck train compared to a single deck (and in a double deck bus compared to a single deck articulated bus for that matter), plus a single deck has far more doors which means those with mobility restrictions can find a place to park themselves and their luggage etc more readily. The two entrances/vestibules per car in a double deck tend to become crowded with standees in peaks because crowds don't distribute evenly in double deck cars. There's nothing worse than arriving at an airport with a double deck service and wanting to get on the train with your suitcases to find a solid wall of people staring at you when the few available doors open.
.


More of your ideology, low on facts. Yes, it is annoying to have to get onto a very crowded service - onto ANY kind of train, at any place. It is sometimes unavoidable. But guess what ? Metro trains also often have "walls of people". This is probably a real problem at Sydney Airport, for about 20 minutes a day. I have often arrived at Sydney airport from overseas around the morning peak, and never had a problem. Maybe I was lucky, every time.

I've never been on a Sydney train where there were too many prams and people with luggage to fit into the end section of the carriages. I have seen three bikes, a few times, causing an obstruction, but not near the airport. I often travel on Melbourne trains with luggage, and they are no better. Actually, they are worse. The seats face away from the doors, the only place you can put anything is right next to the door, and hope that nobody suddenly grabs it and does a runner. Or, stand with your luggage for about 90 minutes. No thanks.

The big area of floor space between the doors and the ends of the carriage, on Sydney double deck trains, is far bigger and more manoueverable and adaptable than the space on Melbourne trains with their narrow doors and transverse seating near the doors, and that includes for prams, bikes, wheelchairs, shopping trolleys, luggage, surfboards, etc.

Or you can travel on the chinese metro from Guangzhou airport to the new train station, or from one Shanghai airport, to the other, or from Chongqing airport downtown, and the trains are chockfull even at the terminal stations on the lines.

The people who complain that the trains to the existing airport don't have luggage space, probably never use them anyway. A few cities have separate special lines to the airport - most do not.

The two entrances/vestibules per car in a double deck tend to become crowded with standees in peaks because crowds don't distribute evenly in double deck cars.""

This isn't even true. Have you ever been on Melbourne trains in peak hour on the busy lines ? The doorways there get clogged with standees, because each train has about 300 fewer seats.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:07 pm

The new trains look great (colour scheme aside!)

I know some posters previously liked to compared Sydney Metro unfavourably to Crossrail, so I present:

Sydney Metro
Image

Crossrail
Image

(I’ve been a little cheeky, there are some carriages on the Crossrail trains that have small traverse sections of seating, but they don’t increase capacity - they replace a section of 4 longitudinal seats with a set of 4 seats - 2 sets of 2 facing each other - you can see them here http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/w ... rior_3.jpg)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:26 pm

I still prefer the Crossrail trains. They look less cluttered and the seats look thicker and possibly more comfortable. I also like the armrests as discussed earlier. Considering that Hong Kong's MTR also has the franchise to operate Crossrail, I wonder how much input they had in the trains' specs? Do the Sydney Metro trains have the Line diagrams with progressive location as shown?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:21 pm

I believe the blank grey panel above the door could be a line diagram screen.

I do like the light feature that indicate which side the doors will open.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Frosty » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:06 pm

I like the look of the Crossrail train surprised about the amount of seat padding considering the recent controversy in the UK of hard train seats. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... seats-due/

Though I had a look at Crossrail trains & Singapore trains they are around 23m long trains. With the Singapore trains on Circle Line & North East Line I did notice on my travels the train shell & interior curves inwards. I'd assume in Singapore plastic seats is for ease of cleaning and they don't have a graffiti issue unlike here in Aus.

If your discussing the Airport Line and the luggage it becomes a problem at the next stations citybound Mascot & Green Square where there isn't enough room.The newer M sets & A sets are better for vestibule space but the silver sets are very bad with space lost due to equipment cupboards & driving compartments.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 pm

Frosty wrote:I like the look of the Crossrail train surprised about the amount of seat padding considering the recent controversy in the UK of hard train seats. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... seats-due/

That says it all. Doesn't passenger amenity matter any more? Treat everyone like cattle seems to be the contemporary norm.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:59 am

neilrex wrote:
More of your ideology, low on facts.

I find your comments pretty ideological actually and not supported by real-life which, like you I have also experienced around the world. Nobody seriously uses double deckers for the type of inner-urban work they do in Sydney. The French try on RER but they can only do it by adding an extra door per carriage (meaning significant loss of seats) and the service is now showing the strain.

Transtopic wrote:That says it all. Doesn't passenger amenity matter any more? Treat everyone like cattle seems to be the contemporary norm.

Every time I read something like this about the double-deck vs single-deck debate in Sydney, my mind always switches to visions of the south coast service in Sydney and the Perth train system and it can't be fooled about which one works and which one doesn't.

The irony is that if you built a metro line from Sydney to Wollongong (which is something you "shouldn't" do according to the transport textbook because it's interurban/intercity) with the running time/stop spacings and closer headways of either the Sydney Metro or the north-south line in Perth, you'd not only do the journey in about 55 minutes, you'd probably actually have more seats (certainly the same or not much less) per hour than they can manage with the double deck service.

I can tell you without hesitation that south coast commuters would not be complaining about passenger amenity after what they've been subjected to over the past few decades.

Edit: After reading that article about the British trains I can only say welcome to the world of Oscars, except that the UK seats look like they at least have some ergonomic moulding, whereas the Oscar seats are true ironing boards. I'm still sceptical as to whether the seats coming up on the NIF will really be up to V set standards. The Perth seats aren't too bad. A trip from Perth to Mandurah is equivalent to Sydney to Thirroul (but in only 50 minutes despite twice as many stops as on the south coast line) and the seat comfort I found not a problem at all.
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