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NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 am

ed24 wrote:I support the proposals but I am a bit disappointed that by my understanding only the St Marys connection will be ready by the time the airport opens, I think that particularly the Cudgegong Rd to Schofields extension should be brought forward a bit.


I'm just glad there will actually bee a rail line to the airport on opening. I wonder if these services will be shuttles between St Marys and Badgerys Creek only if it will be combined with either the T1 or T5 lines
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:30 pm

J_Busworth wrote:
ed24 wrote:I support the proposals but I am a bit disappointed that by my understanding only the St Marys connection will be ready by the time the airport opens, I think that particularly the Cudgegong Rd to Schofields extension should be brought forward a bit.


I'm just glad there will actually bee a rail line to the airport on opening. I wonder if these services will be shuttles between St Marys and Badgerys Creek only if it will be combined with either the T1 or T5 lines

It will have to be, because it will be a metro line. I don't know what they're going to do about maintenance as it will be isolated for a decade or more until it links up with Metro Northwest at Cudgegong Rd. The same goes for an Airport Line conversion to Metro.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:41 pm

Airport Line conversion to Metro. Is that in the plan at all?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:07 pm

J_Busworth wrote:
ed24 wrote:I'm just glad there will actually bee a rail line to the airport on opening. I wonder if these services will be shuttles between St Marys and Badgerys Creek only if it will be combined with either the T1 or T5 lines

It will have to be, because it will be a metro line. I don't know what they're going to do about maintenance as it will be isolated for a decade or more until it links up with Metro Northwest at Cudgegong Rd. The same goes for an Airport Line conversion to Metro.


I don't remember reading the North-South rail link as a metro line, only the East-West rail link (which is essentially an extended Sydney Metro West). It would make more sense for the line to be double decker at opening, with the ability for easy Metro conversion if needed.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:12 pm

New North-South Metro or Light Metro from Macarthur to St Marys and Schofields via Western Sydney Airport ($15-20 billion)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:17 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Airport Line conversion to Metro. Is that in the plan at all?


It is alluded to. It was explicitly called out in the discussion paper, but the final report uses a more generic ‘upgrade of T8 between Revesby and the CBD’. It says that metro conversion was assessed, but doesn’t say it has been adopted.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Frosty » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Maybe it’s a two part thing upgrade the T8 Airport Line to 22-24tph double deck then eventually upgrade the Revesby via Airport section to standalone after maybe 2030 when the stations revert to public ownership.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:31 pm

Let us not get too excited about all this. I have seen so many of these reports over the last 20 to 30 years and only a very small percentage of this type of recommendation ever sees the light of day.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:30 pm

All new lines are proposed as metro or light metro, with the exception of the SWRL extension, which is given a low priority. Even that won't extend all the way to the airport but will interchange with the metro lines at the Aerotropolis, requiring a change of trains to reach the airport. There are some strange conclusions and questionable assumptions IMO.

It should be borne in mind that the recommendations in the scoping study report are just that - recommendations, and they haven't all necessarily been adopted. The only firm commitment so far is the metro rail link from the Aerotropolis to St Mary's via the airport. All rail links are subject to a final business case, so things could still change.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:35 pm

Further to my previous post, I have now read the whole Scoping Study Outcomes Report and I'm more convinced than ever that TfNSW has got their hands all over this with an overriding influence on the findings. I doubt if the Feds have had much input at all. It appears to me that the metro agenda has taken precedence over any rational use of the existing network infrastructure, especially the SWRL, at significantly greater cost and with no credible suggestion of how it could be funded.

The report, contrary to previous expectations, gives a low priority to any reasonably fast direct rail link to the Sydney CBD on the basis that the majority of the airport's patronage in its early years will be to and from Western Sydney. This is a questionable assumption. What about interstate and international travellers? I'd suggest that the bulk of them will be destined to and from the Sydney CBD and inner ring suburbs, especially for tourists. I don't concur with the premise that all of these travellers will fly into Sydney Airport if their destination is Eastern, Northern or Southern Sydney. Badgerys Creek will most likely offer a cheaper alternative for budget airline travellers as well as the advantage of late night and early morning departures for international flights currently not available in Sydney, regardless of their origin or destination in the Sydney Metropolitan area. My instinct tells me that while Sydney Airport will remain the dominant air travel hub for some decades, Badgerys Creek will attract a sizable proportion of interstate and international tourists from Day 1. For that reason, a faster direct rail connection to the Sydney CBD should be given greater priority than what is proposed.

For even those with limited expertise, it would be patently obvious that an extension of the SWRL to the new airport should be the first priority. It's a no-brainer. It immediately provides a direct link to the airport from the South Line and East Hills Line as well as a fast (potentially faster) link to the Sydney CBD via the quadruplicated East Hills Line express tracks, which could be extended to at least Glenfield. It beggars belief that it won't even extend to the airport itself, but require an interchange to a metro line at the Aerotropolis. Farcical! Curiously, the Outcomes Report estimates a cost of $2 billion to extend the SWRL from Leppington to the proposed Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis at Bringelly, a distance of 7km, but the further extension to the airport over the same distance, at double the cost at $4 billion. Strange!

Putting aside the State Government's preferred ideological metro agenda, the most logical link with the airport should be an extension of the SWRL from Leppington to St Marys on the Western Line. Option 4, which branched with the Western Line at St Marys, providing a direct link to Blacktown, Parramatta and the Sydney CBD on the existing line, would have provided an interim continuous link in the short term, but that was discounted in favour of an isolated and slower metro line to interchange with the Western Line at St Marys. Because of track capacity constraints, services from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the Western Line would have to terminate at Central. In the longer term, Option E, which provided for an express tunnel from Parramatta to the CBD for the existing network, would have doubled track capacity for the Western Line into the CBD including Blue Mountains Intercity services, without the need to interchange to the Metro West. It's a myth that the Metro West or any of the proposed airport metro links will relieve congestion on the Western Line. The sooner that lie is exposed, the better. That doesn't preclude a longer term extension of the Metro West to Badgerys Creek, but it won't be a limited stop express service. The fastest service from Badgerys Creek to the Sydney CBD is likely to be via the SWRL and East Hills Line, which could potentially be reduced to at least 40 minutes.

An extension of the SWRL from Leppington to branch with the Western Line at St Marys could potentially provide a continuous loop in both directions for the Cumberland Line via Blacktown, Parramatta and Liverpool which would service a substantial part of Western Sydney. Express links to the Sydney CBD would also be available via both the Western and East Hills Lines.

Alas, any extension of the existing network appears to be off-limits, in preference to the metro agenda. If the metro expansion is considered to be so important, then there is no reason why a longer term separate metro link from Macarthur/Campbelltown to Schofields/Cudgegong Rd via Badgerys Creek couldn't be constructed in tandem with an inner line utilising the existing infrastructure, although it's questionable whether a metro style service is warranted in an outer suburban low density area. The Badgerys Creek Airport site will provide for two track pairs, with four platforms.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 am

Transtopic wrote:Further to my previous post, I have now read the whole Scoping Study Outcomes Report and I'm more convinced than ever that TfNSW has got their hands all over this with an overriding influence on the findings. I doubt if the Feds have had much input at all.

Well TfNSW is the state transport planning agency. NSW is not a federal jurisdiction. It's not up to the Commonwealth to dictate how the state gets people to and from its airport - all they can do is make recommendations.

You need to get over to Perth and ride the trains to see what a difference metro will make to journey times. Not to mention capacity, which is why TfNSW is so interested in them given the growth projections for Sydney. The suburban system is no longer adequate for the future.

According to this from Newscorp, the rail lines appear to converge at the airport:

Image

I agree it would be rather silly if the Leppington line stopped short, but it's early days and the final form is yet to emerge - if it all goes ahead. Considering that the Mascot/Glenfield/Leppington line is already in place, this is the logical connection between the two airports, but it won't be any faster than it is now - i.e. rather slow.
Last edited by tonyp on Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:46 am

If you were the government and had to fund not just the capital cost of a new train line, but also the ongoing running cost, would you choose Sydney Trains with 2 skilled crew, or a driverless Metro with 0-1 customer service agent?

This is the fundamental reason the government is all Metro all the time.

I am convinced that the capital expenditure has never been the sticking point with rail investment, but rather the ongoing operating costs. This has been why we have seen more investment in roads than rail.

The choice really isn’t between Sydney Trains and Metro, it’s between Metro and roads.

That said, there is still a ton of investment going into existing Sydney Trains lines on things like signal and power improvements and new rolling stock.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:36 am

That map is pretty useless for forming an opinion about anything.

The report is published by TfNSW and says -

South West Link would support connections to Western Sydney
Airport via the Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis interchange
The Scoping Study investigated options to connect the South West Link to Western Sydney
Airport. As a direct connection from Leppington, the South West Link would cost approximately
$6 billion (2017 dollars), including the cost of rail infrastructure on the airport site. Although
this would be the most affordable direct connection to the airport, the Scoping Study analysis
highlighted some significant limitations:
• Patronage projections show significantly greater demand for travel to the airport using the
East-West Link and the North-South Link. Accordingly, the South West Link delivers limited
benefits in the long-term.
• Planning for Western Sydney Airport has made provision for only two separate rail services on
the airport site. The Scoping Study recommends that these should be the North-South Link
and the East-West Link in the long-term. The South West Link would connect to the airport
via an interchange at the Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis.
• There are significant road investments underway near the South West Link route as part of the
$3.6 billion Western Sydney Infrastructure Plan, which will contribute towards the connectivity
of regional centres in Western Sydney, including Liverpool.
• Extending the current T2 and T5 Leppington services provides the least convenient service
for airport passengers. An extension of current services to Western Sydney Airport would
result in a lower frequency service using the existing suburban double-deck trains that do not
feature luggage storage facilities.
• Patronage projections indicate little demand for rail connections between Sydney (Kingsford
Smith) Airport and Western Sydney Airport. The two international airports are forecast to act
as independent aviation hubs, not as a single network.
The Scoping Study analysis determined that the South West Link would be most viable by
providing connectivity to Western Sydney Airport via an interchange at the Badgerys Creek
Aerotropolis. The Scoping Study determined the South West Link would not directly connect to
Western Sydney Airport.

The real pity is the loss of an inter airport service!
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:48 am

For some reason they've reached the conclusion that there's not going to be much inter-airport demand. Anyway, my view is that it's very early days in the murky world of politics and urban planning and who knows what will come out at the end of the process.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:06 am

tonyp wrote:For some reason they've reached the conclusion that there's not going to be much inter-airport demand. .


I think that's a reasonable assumption at least for the first 10+ years.
SYD is not going to lose (m)any flights initially and so will still be the major transfer hub.
It's not like Narita where there were forced transfers.

While not directly comparable AVV has 5 daily JQ flights after 10+ years, and only now getting D7 (AirAsiaX).
NTL has 8 737/320s and 5 smaller aircraft.

I'd be surprised if the new airport has more than 20 daily domestic flights in the first few years. And maybe a few LCCs chasing lower costs - probably more D7 (and XT and XJ - AirAsiaX Thai and Indo operations) and 5J (Cebu Pacific) than JQ.

Over time I wouldn't be surprised if some of the regional operators get squeezed out to Badgerys which may make transfers necessary for some International journeys.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby flitter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:41 am

tonyp wrote:For some reason they've reached the conclusion that there's not going to be much inter-airport demand.


Maybe they thought that any inter airport demand could be handled by coaches running down the M5 and M12 for some time. Very few cities with multiple airports worldwide have rail links between them (London, NYC, Paris, Melbourne, to name a few) and Sydney is unlikely to break that trend considering the cost.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:43 pm

An airport that runs for 24 hours and one that runs for 17 hours and no inter-airport demand? And the city is the major tourist hub for the country?

Wait and see indeed,
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:46 pm

moa999 wrote:
I think that's a reasonable assumption at least for the first 10+ years.
SYD is not going to lose (m)any flights initially and so will still be the major transfer hub.
It's not like Narita where there were forced transfers.



And those QF aircraft that currently spend time all day standing expensively on the ground at LHR and LAX and other locations rather than generating revenue?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:24 pm

When I first started going to Japan in the mid 1980s, there were no trains to NRT. They had a shuttle bus from the terminal to the nearest station. There would have been a lot more pax than what WSA will have. Perhaps a shuttle from there to Glenfield to connect with T8 would be the best airport-airport connection?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Frosty » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:05 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
And those QF aircraft that currently spend time all day standing expensively on the ground at LHR and LAX and other locations rather than generating revenue?


Well with QF there are factors such as slots & timing connections. Also maintence can be performed on the ground overseas.QF I’ve read has one of the highest utilisation rates for a long haul airline.

Most people will avoid to make connections between two different airports in the same city & region it’s a nuisance. There are many alternatives often with flying & connections. Though I’ve read stories of people not realising their connecting flight booked on a seperate ticket left from a different airport ie LHR & LGW.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:14 pm

QF also has the largest maintenance shed at LAX on a long-term lease. Turns it's planes around much quicker in Australia.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Stu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:49 pm

Today there were a number of surveyors and engineers taking measurements and photos all around Canterbury Stn - Canterbury Rd (facing East), Broughton St (Northern boundary) and the lane way (Southern boundary).
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:20 pm

There is a subway line between the two Shanghai Airports, a lot of people have to use it, it is a very uncomfortable trip.

You often see people complaining about the issue of "dedicated luggage storage facilities", usually people who never use public transport anyway. I don't know how superior the metro is supposed to be compared to the double deckers for this.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:38 am

That's just because Shanghai subways are often packed and the lines travel through the busiest sections

It's Line 2 - it's also a ~2hr journey with one cross-platform transfer as Pudong is on a branch line and 27-somethong stops, although it least it costs under A$2
You could save a little bit of time by taking the Maglev about a 1/3 of the way at 5x the costs.

It's 54km and normally under 1hr by taxi or a bit more by the express buses which go via a ring road rather than through the CBD

Metro would be the worst way generally.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:16 am

neilrex wrote:You often see people complaining about the issue of "dedicated luggage storage facilities", usually people who never use public transport anyway. I don't know how superior the metro is supposed to be compared to the double deckers for this.

There's a massive loss of available space for people with mobility restrictions (luggage, wheelchairs, prams, etc) in a double deck train compared to a single deck (and in a double deck bus compared to a single deck articulated bus for that matter), plus a single deck has far more doors which means those with mobility restrictions can find a place to park themselves and their luggage etc more readily. The two entrances/vestibules per car in a double deck tend to become crowded with standees in peaks because crowds don't distribute evenly in double deck cars. There's nothing worse than arriving at an airport with a double deck service and wanting to get on the train with your suitcases to find a solid wall of people staring at you when the few available doors open.

Like the double deck buses, double deck trains are best reserved for very long, low-turnover journeys, like interurban services. It's unfortunate for Sydney that the line joining the two airports will be a double-deck line. Sydney's quick-fix capacity "solution" of the 1960s is starting to unravel when put to the heavy-duty test - the luggage issue being one of the problems. Double-deckers are not mass urban transit vehicles. They have every conceivable issue in this application. A truly effective mass transit vehicle (train, tram or bus) must have a stepless floor and a good, even distribution of doors.

Sydney experimented briefly with double deck trams in the 1880s and quickly discovered their crowd-processing issues. Those who fail to learn from the errors of history are bound to repeat them, as they say.
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