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NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:00 pm

ed24 wrote:
Daniel wrote:September. The replacement bus fleet isn’t built yet.

They also have to finish the widening of Delhi Road.

The widening of Delhi Road is only an extra east bound lane from the M2 Motorway over a relatively short distance to just before the Northern Suburbs Crematorium. It's hardly going to make much difference. There will still be a single lane in both directions for the rest of Delhi Road across Fullers Bridge and Millwood Avenue to Fullers Road, which is already chock-a block in peak hours. Even with the relatively minor number of passengers transferring to buses from the Northern Line, I can't see how the suggested additional travel times are credible.

Although not directly related to this topic, it brings to mind the folly of past governments in abandoning the proposed direct upgraded road link from Delhi Road bypassing Fullers Bridge, Millwood Avenue and Fullers Road to the Boundary Street and Pacific Highway intersection at Roseville. Local environmental groups opposed the passage of the road link through the Blue Gum Forest, just as they did in opposing the original ECRL crossing of the Lane Cove River by a bridge, which resulted in the then Labor Government caving in and agreeing to a steeper alignment to pass under the
river instead. In the process, an additional station at the UTS Kuring-gai Campus had to be cancelled as it would be too deep because of the steeper alignment.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:33 pm

Transtopic wrote: Even those bound for North Sydney would be better off to stay on the train

Are you sure? Epping to North Sydney, stopping all to Strathfield is a 50 minute journey. What is the predicted travel time from Cheltenham/Beecroft? Google reckons non stop at 7am it would be 18-30mins from Cheltenham. Still some people would still avoid the replacement buses for a single seat journey even if it was 20 minutes slower.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:55 pm

simonl wrote:
Transtopic wrote: Even those bound for North Sydney would be better off to stay on the train

Are you sure? Epping to North Sydney, stopping all to Strathfield is a 50 minute journey. What is the predicted travel time from Cheltenham/Beecroft? Google reckons non stop at 7am it would be 18-30mins from Cheltenham. Still some people would still avoid the replacement buses for a single seat journey even if it was 20 minutes slower.

As an example, it's currently a 28 minute journey by route 290 from Epping to St Leonards. For those travelling from north of Epping by train, you would have to allow for say 5 mins to interchange to a bus and another 5 mins to transfer to a train at St Leonards to complete a journey to North Sydney. It's another 8 mins by train to North Sydney. That's a total of 46 mins and that doesn't allow for any major traffic holdups along the way in peak hours, which will be inevitable.

As you correctly point out, it's currently a 50 min trip by rail from Epping to North Sydney via Strathfield. However, it's likely that the diverted Northern Line trains from Hornsby via Strathfield will be limited stop from Epping, at least in the peak. Based on the current limited stop service in the morning peak from Epping to Central, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield and Burwood, which takes 6 mins less than the all station service, that would equate to a 44 min journey time. It's roughly equivalent to the journey time if you changed to the bus at Epping then to train again at St Leonards, so why would you bother?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:32 pm

Aren't they running a bus to North Sydney? I'd have thought they should but I guess if it doesn't provide a competitive journey time they may not.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:41 pm

simonl wrote:Aren't they running a bus to North Sydney? I'd have thought they should but I guess if it doesn't provide a competitive journey time they may not.

There's no special bus service to North Sydney under the Temporary Transport Plan. This doesn't preclude of course catching the regular 290 from Epping directly to North Sydney, but I think they're trying to discourage that to minimise any interchange congestion at Epping. The special bus services from Epping only go to Macquarie Park and Chatswood and a service from Beecroft goes to and from St Leonards, partly on the M2 and Lane Cove Tunnel, before exiting onto the Pacific Hwy at Lane Cove through to St Leonards. It's difficult to give an exact comparison, but I think the 290 gives a close representation.

It's also difficult to give an exact comparison of travel times for rail and bus between Epping and Chatswood. There is currently no direct bus service between Epping and Chatswood to enable that comparison to be made. While there is a service from Eastwood to Chatswood (545), it takes an indirect route through Macquarie Park, which makes any comparison in travel times irrelevant. The current train journey from Epping to Chatswood is 16 mins, but the equivalent journey by bus is going to take much longer in peak hours, especially taking into account the single lane sections of Delhi Rd and Millwood Ave and the congestion at the Fullers Rd and Pacific Hwy intersection. Upper Northern Line commuters bound for North Sydney would still be better off staying on the train for a single seat journey via Strathfield. However, once the metro line operation commences, that's another story. In the interim period until the metro is extended to the CBD, commuters from the Upper Northern Line travelling to North Sydney will have the choice of changing twice at Epping and Chatswood or having a slightly longer single seat journey via Strathfield and the CBD. It remains to be seen how this will pan out.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Daniel » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:14 am

The first six of the replacement bus fleet have been delivered to Transdev (Volvo B8 / VST) and include internal Mobitec information displays similar to the B line fleet.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:30 am

Interesting about the displays. Hopefully they're still used after the replacement duties are over.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm

Transtopic wrote: Based on the current limited stop service in the morning peak from Epping to Central, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield and Burwood, which takes 6 mins less than the all station service,


I find it unconvicing that you actually save 6 minutes by skipping only 3 stations.

On most of the other examples I have looked at, you only save 1 minute per station skipped.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Transtopic wrote: In the interim period until the metro is extended to the CBD, commuters from the Upper Northern Line travelling to North Sydney will have the choice of changing twice at Epping and Chatswood or having a slightly longer single seat journey via Strathfield and the CBD. It remains to be seen how this will pan out.

I would be very surprised if the majority go for the double interchange option. Even when it's a single interchange, a lot may well just stay on the train for North Sydney and probably the majority unless it's significantly faster.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:45 pm

neilrex wrote:
Transtopic wrote: Based on the current limited stop service in the morning peak from Epping to Central, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield and Burwood, which takes 6 mins less than the all station service,


I find it unconvicing that you actually save 6 minutes by skipping only 3 stations.

On most of the other examples I have looked at, you only save 1 minute per station skipped.

That particular service also skips Redfern. The timetable for example shows one of these trains departing Epping at 07:53 and arriving at Central at 08:24, a journey time of 31 mins. The standard journey time for the all stations service from Epping to Central is 37 mins, 6 mins longer. The standard Intercity service stopping at Eastwood and Strathfield takes 26 mins.

Assuming that a limited stop service is introduced during peak hours for the Upper Northern Line after diversion from the ECRL (I'd be surprised if it isn't), there may well be a different stopping pattern from Epping to the CBD. We shall just have to wait and see.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:57 pm

simonl wrote:
Transtopic wrote: In the interim period until the metro is extended to the CBD, commuters from the Upper Northern Line travelling to North Sydney will have the choice of changing twice at Epping and Chatswood or having a slightly longer single seat journey via Strathfield and the CBD. It remains to be seen how this will pan out.

I would be very surprised if the majority go for the double interchange option. Even when it's a single interchange, a lot may well just stay on the train for North Sydney and probably the majority unless it's significantly faster.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the first point, particularly as they may have to stand all the way from Epping to North Sydney, when they will most likely already have a seat going the long way round. I estimate that the travel time from Epping to North Sydney for the double interchange option after the metro opens to Chatswood would be about 30 mins and that's allowing for say an average of 2 mins for each interchange. It's obviously faster than the 44 mins I suggested for a single seat journey via Strathfield, but would the time saving and hassle of interchanging twice be worth the trade-off of a more comfortable single seat journey? Some may value the time saving more while others may not.

On the other hand, when the metro is extended from Chatswood to the CBD, that presents a completely different scenario, even with the inconvenience of having to interchange once. I estimate it would be about a 20 min trip from Epping to North Sydney (Victoria Cross) by the metro, which is less than half the time it would take by staying on the train from north of Epping. That could swing the pendulum the other way.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:33 am

neilrex wrote:
Transtopic wrote: Based on the current limited stop service in the morning peak from Epping to Central, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield and Burwood, which takes 6 mins less than the all station service,


I find it unconvicing that you actually save 6 minutes by skipping only 3 stations.

On most of the other examples I have looked at, you only save 1 minute per station skipped.


Sometimes it even takes longer!

17:58 Gordon, Turramurra, Waitara, Hornsby = 12 minutes
18:02 Gordon, Hornsby = 14 minutes
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:15 am

mandonov wrote:Interesting about the displays. Hopefully they're still used after the replacement duties are over.

It might be more interesting to find out what will happen to these buses when their duties are over. Unlikely they would be mothballed for the Bankstown shutdown.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby iamthouth » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:58 pm

The buses will replace old fleet in the CDC and Transdev metro and outer regions, with the older buses retiring early.

And on travel time comparisons, the road network around Macquarie Park will be put to the test, with all roads including M2 experiencing more traffic from people wanting to drive instead of train/bus transfers. Current travel times are likely insufficient.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby flitter » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 am

andy_centralcoast wrote:
neilrex wrote:[quote="Transtopic"] Based on the current limited stop service in the morning peak from Epping to Central, stopping at Eastwood, West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield and Burwood, which takes 6 mins less than the all station service,


I find it unconvicing that you actually save 6 minutes by skipping only 3 stations.

On most of the other examples I have looked at, you only save 1 minute per station skipped.


Sometimes it even takes longer!

17:58 Gordon, Turramurra, Waitara, Hornsby = 12 minutes
18:02 Gordon, Hornsby = 14 minutes[/quote]

Before the North Shore line went all stops only between Chatswood and North Sydney it was more that 6 minutes faster on the limited stop services, and that was just 3 stops.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby rogf24 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:14 pm

I'm sure if others have posted it but I was at Chatswood the other day and I noticed these metal things embedded into the platform with numbers marked trying to figure out what it was. I think they likely to be where the platform screen doors are supposed to go.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:27 pm

Transport for NSW has released their Western Sydney Rail Needs Scoping Study Outcomes Report

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... report.pdf

Summary recommendations:
  • New North-South Metro or Light Metro from Macarthur to St Marys and Schofields via Western Sydney Airport ($15-20 billion)
  • New East-West Metro from Western Sydney Airport to Parramatta ($12-15 billion)
  • New Metro Sydney West from Parramatta to CBD (already under detailed planning)
  • Extend South West Rail Link from Leppington to Western Sydney Airport ($2-$6 billion)
  • Extend North West Metro from Rouse Hill to Schofields
  • Extend South West Metro from Bankstown to Liverpool
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Which tends to confirm once and far all that Hurstville Metro is dead.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby AccordV6L » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:Which tends to confirm once and far all that Hurstville Metro is dead.



Speaking of the Hurstville metro extension (or lack of it!), I saw a media article about a year ago stating that the Hurstville metro has been canned but no announcement has been made. Well immediately after reading that, I emailed both Sydney Metro and TFNSW. Both of them responded saying that Sydney Trains was responsible for stations and I should contact them. Neither confirmed whether Metro Hurstville was going ahead.

I know this is old and might not be that relevant, just thought i'd mention it.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:31 pm

But that has absolutely nothing to do with Sydney Trains. And yes I have also sen such an article https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/pla ... mj9dz.html
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ed24 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:37 pm

I support the proposals but I am a bit disappointed that by my understanding only the St Marys connection will be ready by the time the airport opens, I think that particularly the Cudgegong Rd to Schofields extension should be brought forward a bit.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Daniel » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:00 am

Fleet Lists wrote:Which tends to confirm once and far all that Hurstville Metro is dead.

The Hurstville Metro would not fall within the scope as it it not in Western Sydney.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:16 am

Daniel wrote:The Hurstville Metro would not fall within the scope as it it not in Western Sydney.

To anybody in the eastern suburbs it does! Western Sydney starts at West Kensington. 8)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Daniel » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:04 am

tonyp wrote:
Daniel wrote:The Hurstville Metro would not fall within the scope as it it not in Western Sydney.

To anybody in the eastern suburbs it does! Western Sydney starts at West Kensington. 8)

You’re not wrong. For some Eastern suburbs folk, a trip to the Supa Cente is too far west for them.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:52 am

tonyp wrote:
Daniel wrote:The Hurstville Metro would not fall within the scope as it it not in Western Sydney.

To anybody in the eastern suburbs it does! Western Sydney starts at West Kensington. 8)

Phew, I'm just inside the border 8) 8)
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